Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18389 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #704 on: May 10, 2017, 05:21:25 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your post I am a little confused are you saying there are two marriages I've always thought there is only one and that is Christ and his bride the church although I do believe there will be Israelites as well and that Christ and his church will reign for 1000 years.

These verses from St Paul seam to indicate this.

 Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

To me this would indicate that the church and Israel will all be part of the same tree which of course is Christ I believe this to be the tree of life.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #705 on: May 11, 2017, 09:14:12 AM »
Hello @davetaff,

I understand your confusion. 

* However as I have been considering the 1,000 years in which the Overcomers receive their reward, and the promises made to them are fulfilled, I am glimpsing  the vastness of God's purpose, which extends far beyond the limits of our limited understanding; and I am in awe of it. The day of the Lord, is to be followed by the day of God, and the 1,000 year reign is just the beginning of the reign of Christ.

* The Bride, which is the Holy City, the heavenly Jerusalem: comes down out of heaven to the new earth. It is the habitation of Overcomers, who, 'loved not their lives unto death': martyrs, who were resurrected prior to the 1,000 year reign, and have reigned with Him for a 1,000 years from heaven. They descend to the New Earth (Revelation 21).

* Revelation 19:6b-9 is the portion we are considering at the moment, and it is just an announcement of what is to come.

* The Bride is not the Church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the Head, Dave; for the members of the Body of Christ have been, 'made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light', they are 'complete in Him' (Col.2:10); and are, 'perfect in Christ Jesus' (Col.1:28 ); 'accepted in the Beloved' (Eph.1:6)'  They cannot be those therefore, described in Rev 19:7, as having, 'made herself ready'. No, the Church which is His Body, cannot be made more, 'ready', than they already are in God's estimation. The language of Rev.19:7,  is quite foreign to the perfect standing of the Church of the One Body, which is in grace.

* Revelation 19:8, also confirms this.

'And it was given to her
that she should be arrayed in fine linen raiment,
bright and pure:
For fine linen raiment is the righteousness of the saints'


* The word translated righteousness in this verse, refers to, 'righteous acts', and not to a 'state': here it is plural and denotes the righteousness of the things in the context; meaning 'the righteous awards of the saints'.  It is 'given' to the Wife of the Lamb. Not, 'imputed' (or 'reckoned'), as God's righteousness, in Christ Jesus, is, in our case. We have no righteousness of our own, for it is reckoned to us, by God's grace.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad






Offline Rose Anna

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #706 on: May 11, 2017, 09:49:24 AM »
Hi @Cariad @davetaff hope you don't mind me joining in, to ask some questions following the discussion on another thread.
I find this interesting. Is it that Israel ( the wife) and the overcomers in Christ ( bride) become married to the Lamb, but just given different terms because of the people they represent?
We know that we are given eternal life through what Jesus has done and not our works.
Yet there is a lot in the bible in relation to overcoming and rewards.
If the millennium is based on overcomers, do you think it can be for people who gave sacrificially for Christ's sake but didn't necessarily die for it?
What about those who lived good lives through the power of God, but didn't necessarily suffer, or give to the point of giving  sacrificially but did good in serving God?
 Are they the ones who rise to the second resurrection, where their names are written in the book of life, not earning their eternal life as its a gift.

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #707 on: May 11, 2017, 10:42:26 AM »
Hi @Cariad @davetaff hope you don't mind me joining in, to ask some questions following the discussion on another thread.

* It is lovely to see you here, @Primrose, and receive your input.

Quote
I find this interesting. Is it that Israel ( the wife) and the overcomers in Christ ( bride) become married to the Lamb, but just given different terms because of the people they represent?

* The use of the concept of marriage, and terms such as, 'wife', or, 'bride', is, I believe, God's way of enabling us to understand something which would otherwise be beyond the ability of our minds to comprehend.

* The Bride, 'the new Jerusalem', is heavenly in character and situation.(Rev.3:12; Rev.21:2,10; Heb.12:22; Heb.11:13-16; Heb.11:9,10; Gal.4:26)

* When God calls Israel to Himself as a woman forsaken, as a Wife of youth, when refused, who for a little time had been under the cloud of wrath, and under the hiding of His face, He declares,

'I will lay thy stones with fair colours,
and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
And I will make thy windows of agates,
and Thy gates of carbuncles,
and Thy borders of pleasant stones'

(Isaiah 54:11,12)

* Jerusalem, an earthly reflection of a heavenly Jerusalem.

* These two cities are distinct. The descriptions of both are different, eg., the gates of one are of carbuncles, the gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem were, 'every several gate of one pearl' (Rev.21:21). Both beautiful, there can nonetheless be no doubt that they are distinct.  The city of Isaiah 54 is threatened by enemies (Isa.54:15-17), whereas the Heavenly Jerusalem cannot be threatened in that way. Also the city that Abraham looked for cannot be the city of Isaiah 54, it must have been the city of Rev. 21 and 22.

* The Heavenly Jerusalem could descend and rest upon the basis formed by the restored Jerusalem on earth (see Ezekiel 48:35)

* Forgive me for not answering your question directly, Primrose, for I, like yourself, am a 'learner'; and am fearful of imposing my own understanding upon what is Divine. I would rather let His Word speak.

Quote
We know that we are given eternal life through what Jesus has done and not our works.
Yet there is a lot in the bible in relation to overcoming and rewards.
If the millennium is based on overcomers, do you think it can be for people who gave sacrificially for Christ's sake but didn't necessarily die for it?
What about those who lived good lives through the power of God, but didn't necessarily suffer, or give to the point of giving  sacrificially but did good in serving God?
Are they the ones who rise to the second resurrection, where their names are written in the book of life, not earning their eternal life as its a gift.

* Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God, and he did not die a martyrs death.

* Also the reward for enduring to the end in the epistles written concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ - the fullness of Him that fills all in all; is to reign with Christ.  However their sphere of blessing and hope is in Heavenly places, in Christ Jesus. Not in the New Jerusalem.

I am still trying to take all this in myself, Primrose. So value your input.

Love in Christ Jesus
Cariad



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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #708 on: May 11, 2017, 04:14:37 PM »
Hi @Cariad @davetaff hope you don't mind me joining in, to ask some questions following the discussion on another thread.
I find this interesting. Is it that Israel ( the wife) and the overcomers in Christ ( bride) become married to the Lamb, but just given different terms because of the people they represent?
We know that we are given eternal life through what Jesus has done and not our works.
Yet there is a lot in the bible in relation to overcoming and rewards.
If the millennium is based on overcomers, do you think it can be for people who gave sacrificially for Christ's sake but didn't necessarily die for it?
What about those who lived good lives through the power of God, but didn't necessarily suffer, or give to the point of giving  sacrificially but did good in serving God?
 Are they the ones who rise to the second resurrection, where their names are written in the book of life, not earning their eternal life as its a gift.


Hi Primrose
Welcome to the discussion all the more the merrier I'm sure you have a lot to offer which will be a help to many we are looking here at possibly the most difficult book in the bible and need all the help we can get so please get stuck in.

 At the present time I'm having difficulty with Chris's wife and Bride I see Israel as Christs spiritual mother and father hence  the  saying.

  Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

although this is true for us it is also true on the spiritual level and I think this is what Paul meant when he said.

Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33  Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Who is Christs and the church's mother and father if not Israel ( as I have said before Israel is Adam) this is Pauls great Mystery.

Moving on to the next section of verses.

Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

What a spectacular sight think what it would be like to witness these things I like this statement "  for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
dose not this cunger up all sorts of possibilities.
we should not forget the warning at the beginning  we must be careful who we worship.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #709 on: May 13, 2017, 10:29:09 AM »
Hi Chris and Primrose
Just had another thought on the text from St Paul above.
If God is male and female then Christ left his heavenly father and mother and came down to earth the son of God.
On earth he became the son of man the man being Adam (Israel) remember the seed of Genesis would come out of Israel.
So Paul's statement has a double fulfilment one for the son of God and one for the son of man.

Love and Peace
Dave



Offline Rose Anna

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #710 on: May 13, 2017, 01:42:30 PM »
Hiya,
I find the language of Revelation very difficult to understand and have read different commentaries over the years and have more often read the other books of the bible, as I relate to more.
It's been more a case of understanding the bible through life's experience and what in the bible can connect and as God shows me.

Its interesting what you are writing and I'm just putting my thoughts down and they may or may not be correct. So please excuse any waffling.

I agree that God describes Himself as a parent, both mother and father to His people.
He is though much more special than a biological mother and father, and in terms we can relate to in ways parents bring up their children.
I think it is more a metaphor to describe how He parents His children. Although a metaphor and not exactly  the same as a biological relationship but described how He does things in an unseen way and in a  much more special way.
That's how God describes the marriage between the Lamb and His people.
Its more the union and using the metaphor marriage and so we understand, but not exactly the same as marriage as we know it but much more special.
What I'm saying the terms used for parents and marriage are metaphors but without lessening how special they are for what they represent, in order to help us understand.

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #711 on: May 13, 2017, 02:14:48 PM »
@davetaff
@Primrose

Hello there,

My input wil never be in harmony with you, I fear, Dave,

I am a member of the Church which is His Body, and not of the Bride of the Lamb; neither do I have claim to be part of the company who comprise, 'The Wife'.  God does not mix His metaphors.  I rejoice in Christ my Saviour, as Head of His Body the Church, but fully recognise and acknowledge the place of the other companies mentioned, which also have a place in God's plan and purpose, with their different hopes and blessings, and spheres of future glory. 

I believe what God says, believing that He means what He says. Therefore do not spiritualise it, or try to interpret it.
So cannot accept your reasoning, Dave.

* May God's will be done in each and everyone of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

Within the love of Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified Lord and Saviour
Our Beloved Head.
Cariad