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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #624 on: February 19, 2017, 06:40:47 PM »
(Continuing response to P.73 Reply 581 (@davetaff)

'And after that I looked, and, behold,
the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

(Rev.15:5)

Hello Dave,

It is good to remember that the Tabernacle of Moses, and the Temple of Solomon were only copies of the Tabernacle and Temple in Heaven.  The realities were there, the copies were on earth.  It is the Holy of Holies which was opened, to allow the seven angels to come out from the presence of God, as in chapter 11:19,

'And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament:
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings,
and an earthquake, and great hail.'

(Rev. 11:19)

-----------------------

'And the seven angels came out of the temple,
having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen,
and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
And one of the four beasts
gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials
full of the wrath of God
, Who liveth for ever and ever.

(Rev.15:6,7)

* Mention is made of one of four beasts (zoa = 'living creatures'), who gives the vials to the seven angels. We saw these in chapter 4:-

'And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:
and in the midst of the throne,
and round about the throne,
were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.'

(Rev.4:6)

* These beasts (zoa) are related to Creation and to the earth, as we can see from chapter 4;  and there their words announce the blessed fact that the judgments which are about to take place, have as their object the removal of the curse, and of all unholiness from the earth; and the ending of creation's groaning (Rom. 8:22).

* The vials themselves, were shallow bowls, made of gold, and belonged to the altar.

'And the temple was filled
with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power
;
and no man was able to enter into the temple,
till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.'

(Rev 15:5-8)

* When the Tabernacle was opened by Moses and the temple by Solomon, there was cloud, but not smoke (Exo. 40:34-36; 1 Kings 8:10,11).  Here it is smoke, for this is the hour of God's judgment (Rev.14:17).

* No intercession can now be made.  No worship offered while it lasts.  It will be as spoken of in Lamentations 3:44:-

'Thou hast covered Thyself with a cloud,
That our prayer should not pass through.'


* This brings to a close a parenthesis, which encompasses chapters 12:1 to 15:8.  What follows is the result of the sounding of the seventh Trumpet in (Rev.8:2,6).  In Rev.11:-19, a brief summary is given of those results, giving just a glimpse; what follows in chapter 16, is a record of events in their proper order.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


PS:
I see that @Question and @Abishag joined you during your consideration of Revelation 16, Dave. You must have been grateful for the input. I won't comment on anything raised in those posts, #582 - #603 (P76), but hope to catch up to where you finished at Revelation 17, (#604) this week (God willing).  Thank you for your patience.

:)


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #625 on: February 21, 2017, 09:34:24 AM »
Hi there,

Before continuing on with chapter 16, I have been drawn to the comparison, between chapters 14 and 15, which I would like consider with you again:-

* Before the figures of the Harvest and the Vintage of chapter 14, we are given a glimpse of the FIRST FRUITS (14:1-5)

'And I looked, and, lo,
a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having His Father's name written in their foreheads
.
And I heard a voice from heaven,
as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder:
and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts (the zoa), and the elders:
and no man could learn that song
but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
 which were redeemed from the earth.
These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb
.'

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
(Rev.14:1-5)

* These sing A NEW SONG.

* In Chapter 15, before the seven vials are poured out, we see THE OVERCOMERS of the Beast, who also are a kind of FIRSTFRUITS  from the harvest of the earth.  These, instead of singing a new song, sing the songs of Moses, and of the Lamb.  The key to understanding the seven vials of wrath is found in 'the song of Moses'.

* Though there are two songs attributed to Moses, (Exodus 15 and Deuteronomy 32) the one that is distinctly and repeatedly called, 'The Song of Moses', is found in Deuteronomy 32.  It rehearses the ways of God with His people, vindicating the justice of His judgments, and revealing the inner causes both of Israel's defection and the nations's apostasy.

* In Deuteronomy 31:19 we read, 'That this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel': in verse 21, 'this song shall testify against them as a witness,' and in verse 22, that 'Moses wrote this song the same day'.  The object of the song is given in verse 29,   it concerns the evil which will befall Israel in the 'LATTER DAYS'.  It shows the idolatry of Israel, the worshiping of strange gods, the forgetting of God, and their resemblance to the vine of Sodom.  The song concludes with a call to the nations to rejoice with His people; the threat of vengeance for the blood of His servants, and the promise of mercy to His land and His People.

* In Exodus 34:10, the Lord makes a covenant that before all the people He would do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation.  This is primarily a covenant with reference to Israel as a stiff-necked people.  It is noticeable also how closely the miraculous judgments of the Revelation resemble the plagues sent by God upon Pharaoh and Egypt, in chapter 16.

* In Revelation 15:3, the Overcomers sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb.  Then they ask the question, 'Who should not fear, and glorify Thy name, O Lord?'

Amen! Great and glorious is our God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #626 on: February 21, 2017, 03:50:44 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your posts I don't mind at all I welcome all discussions one can never plumb the depths of scripture can one.

Not to sure is we can exclude the song of Moses in Exodus 15 as it tells of God bringing Israel out of Egypt and He will do the same thing again only on a grander scale when he takes the Church out of the world let us pray it will be soon.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Who are these 144.000 are they all Israelite's or a combination of Israelite's and gentile saints or are they the church the body of Christ are the all those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world

 
Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I wonder what the new song is we are not told but it dose mirror the song of Moses in Exodus in that as Israel had a song of triumph from Moses so these 144.000 redeemed from the earth will also have a song of triumph.
 
Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These verses are a bit tricky we Know that there were some apostles who were married and I think the Levite's were allowed to marry
So I'm wondering if this may mean that this 144.000 had not committed adultery with other Gods and idols in other words they were spiritual virgins.

Jest a few thought to kick us of It's great to have you back certainly giving my old grey cells a workout thank you.

Love and Peace
Dave 



Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #627 on: February 21, 2017, 05:28:09 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your posts I don't mind at all I welcome all discussions one can never plumb the depths of scripture can one.

Not to sure is we can exclude the song of Moses in Exodus 15 as it tells of God bringing Israel out of Egypt and He will do the same thing again only on a grander scale when he takes the Church out of the world let us pray it will be soon.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Who are these 144.000 are they all Israelite's or a combination of Israelite's and gentile saints or are they the church the body of Christ are the all those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world

 
Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I wonder what the new song is we are not told but it dose mirror the song of Moses in Exodus in that as Israel had a song of triumph from Moses so these 144.000 redeemed from the earth will also have a song of triumph.
 
Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Hi Dave,

Let's look at the verses concerning the 144,000, and let them speak:-

* The Mark:-
'
Behold, I come quickly:
hold that fast which thou hast,
that no man take thy crown.
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of My God,
and the name of the city of My God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from My God:
and I will write upon him My New Name.'

(Rev. 3:11,12)

* The Name: Rev. 3:8; 19:12,13; 19:16

* The 144,000:- (Rev. 2:1-8) (Rev. 14:1-5)

'Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand
of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

.. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
... Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
... Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
.... Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
..... Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
...... Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
....... Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
........ Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
......... Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
.......... Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
........... Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
............ Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


'And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand
,
having His Father's Name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven,
as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder:
and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
which were redeemed from the earth.
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And in their mouth was found no guile:
for they are without fault before the throne of God
.'


* The Great Multitude:- (Rev 7:9-10)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,
stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.'


* The number of Israelites are specifically given as 144,000 (Rev.7:1-8)
* Whereas the number of the multitude (Rev.7:9) - is innumerable, and they come from 'every nation,' and, 'all tribes, and peoples, and tongues'

Praise God!

Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #628 on: February 21, 2017, 06:02:30 PM »
Quote
@davetaff
These verses are a bit tricky we Know that there were some apostles who were married and I think the Levite's were allowed to marry
So I'm wondering if this may mean that this 144.000 had not committed adultery with other Gods and idols in other words they were spiritual virgins.

Jest a few thought to kick us of It's great to have you back certainly giving my old grey cells a workout thank you.

Love and Peace
Dave

'And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues
yet repented not of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship devils,
and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:
which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Neither repented they of their murders,
nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.'

(Rev 9:20,21) 

Hello again,

I am enjoying this study too, Dave, and being alongside someone who is happy to hear my twopennyworth :)

'These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.'

(Rev 14:4) 

* Dave, I think we need to consider the character of the days in which this description, 'for they are virgins' is set.   I agree with you that idolatry is the main characteristic, for the sphere of operation in which the Beast and the False prophet play their part is religious and political. Several times in the letters to the Assemblies, and in chapter 9:20:21 (above), we read that 'Fornication' will be part of the great religious system of Anti-Christ, and it will be a time of not only trouble, but temptation for those who would live godly.  Fornication appears to be an obligatory part of the great pagan systems of idolatry.  Idolatry was not simply a sin into which people gradually sunk; but it was a Satanic device to gratify the lusts of the flesh under the cloak of religion.  The references to Balaam (2:14) and to Jezebel (2:20) give food for thought in relation to this, too.

'And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
which were redeemed from the earth.'

(Rev 14:3) 

* Dave, I think that it was a song only they could sing, because only they had experienced the times, and knew what they had been delivered from by the sealing placed upon them.  Only they knew the depth of the trial undergone, and the martyrdoms which refusal to partake of such practices brought with it.  They were purchased from among men, a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb, and in their mouth was not found guile (or, 'the lie') for they were blameless.

Praise God!

* For their 'sealing', their 'preservation', for it was His doing, He redeemed them.

Thank you again, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad





Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #629 on: February 22, 2017, 09:56:10 AM »
'And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb,
saying, "Great and marvellous are Thy works,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are Thy ways,
Thou King of saints.
Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord,
and glorify Thy name?
For Thou only art holy:
for all nations shall come and worship before Thee;
for Thy judgments are made manifest.'


Hi there,

Though I have considered this song already, there are still one or two things to consider, for example,  the words, 'Thou King of Saints': for in the Bible margin the word, 'Saints', is translated, 'Nations', and in another version it has been translated, 'King of ages'.  The two titles, 'King of nations' and 'King of the ages,' occur together in a most significant passage in Jeremiah 10: in which Jeremiah the prophet, warns Israel against idolatry.  After proving the utter futility of idolatry, the prophet says in verses 6 and 7,

'Forasmuch as there is none like unto Thee, O LORD;
Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might.
Who would not fear Thee, O King of nations?
for to thee doth it appertain:
forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations,
and in all their kingdoms,
there is none like unto Thee.'


*  Then in Jer. 10:10, Jeremiah continues,

But the LORD is the true God,
He is the living God,
and an everlasting king:
(or, King of the ages)
at His wrath the earth shall tremble,
and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation. '


* This sounds much like the state of things in Revelation 14, doesn't it? With the sounding forth of, 'The Everlasting Gospel'.  Both titles, 'King of the nations' and 'King of the ages', both speak of the Lord's purpose through the ages with regard to Israel and the nations, don't they?

* 'The Song of Moses', and, 'The song of the Lamb', bring before us the truth, the righteousness, the mercy of Him Who is both King of nations and King of ages, Who in the midst of wrath remembers mercy, and, while judging the nations for their idolatry, yet speaks of the day when all the nations shall worship before Him.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad










Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #630 on: February 22, 2017, 10:34:48 AM »
@davetaff

'And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels,
Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.'

(Rev 16:1) 

Hello there,

We now approach the great crisis point of the book of Revelation.  Chapters 16, 17 and 18 are taken up with the seven last plagues.  These seven vials of wrath are, in the language of Jeremiah 51:11, ' ... the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of His temple.'.  The temple of the tabernacle of the testimony is the basis of these judgments (Rev. 15:5 & 16:1).  They have to do with idolatry, with the usurpation of the place of God, and with the blood of the saints.

'And after that I looked, and, behold,
the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
And the seven angels came out of the temple,
having the seven plagues,
clothed in pure and white linen,
and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.'

(Rev 15:5,6)

* This final assault is upon the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet, which will mark, 'the great and terrible day of the Lord.' (Joel 2:31)

'And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels,
Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2  And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore
upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.'

(Rev 16:1,2)   

* It is good to remember that it is upon these that the wrath of God is being poured.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #631 on: February 22, 2017, 10:40:30 AM »
@Question
@davetaff

@Question made an interesting point in his response to you, Dave in Reply#588, which I would like to include in our consideration of the plagues which follow in chapter sixteen in the Judgments of God.

Quote
Question: (Reply#588)
Well the bible does seem to repeat itself /reflect/ prophecy/repeat/ itself..

It was  only natural that those who believed in the  Egyptian god's - should therefore  suffer from the worship of those god's [as in the worship of the Egyptian god's and the apparent plagues] of which each was a mirror of each god.

eg; "Each plague had a meaning as per god worshipped"

God simply used their god's/neighbours/  against them. [those they tabernacled with]

re: "love of life becomes an enemy" - neigbour is enemy [as the hebrews became egypts enemies also / a god becomes your own enemy - or I  can be my own worst  own enemy.

What is an enemy ! it's something that works against you and this can also be God

* Yes, each plague was directly associated with a god that the Egyptians worshipped, and it will be good to take note of each one, perhaps, as we go along.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad