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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #616 on: February 15, 2017, 12:13:47 PM »
Hi
Lets continue a little further But if anyone wishes to comment on a previous post please feel free I need all the help I can get.

Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Is this a reference to the rapture when our Lord comes to take home all those that belong to him to begin the millennial reign.
------------------
Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Here we have another harvest but this is very different to the first not sure what the wine press is but it don't sound very pleasant dose it.
And this harvest was trodden down outside  the city, is this city the new Jerusalem the first Harvest would be inside the city.

There are two harvests the first one is all those who belong to the Body of Christ St Paul says it much better than me.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The vine of the earth must be those who belong to the earth all the the  unbelievers the question being what is the wine press of God what is it's purpose is it intended for good.

Love and Peace
Dave
P73 Reply #580

?And another angel came out of the temple,
crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud,
?Thrust in Thy sickle, and reap:
for the time is come for Thee to reap;
for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

(Rev 14:15) 

Hello again, @davetaff,

In John 5:26,27  we read that the Father has given the Lord Jesus Christ authority to execute judgment, 'because He is the Son of Man.' How well fitted is He to judge mankind justly, having been made in the likeness of man (Phil 2:7), He knows what is in man, and is able to discern the secrets of men?s hearts (Rom. 2:16).

The Old Testament connects this harvest with judgment, for a similar command is given in Joel 3:13: 'Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:'

'And He that sat on the cloud
thrust in His sickle on the earth;
and the earth was reaped.'

(Rev. 14:16)

The words, 'the earth', are repeated here to impress our minds with the fact that it is the earth itself that is being reaped, for it is 'the hour of His judgment' which has come (14:7)  So I do not agree that it is the rapture of the church that is the object of this reaping, Dave.  It is 2 Thess. 1:6-8 that we have here,  ---

'Seeing it is a righteous thing with God
to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
'


--- when the time has come for Him to 'gather out of His kingdom all things that offend' (Matt.13:41), 'immediately He putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.' (Mark 4:29).  Matthew 24:37-42 needs to be read in connection with the scene before us.

Babylon is mentioned in the verses immediately preceding this harvest (14:8 ); and chap 17 and 18, identify it with Jeremiah 51:33, for 'the harvest is the end of the age.'

After the harvest comes the vintage: as in nature so it is in judgment. Which brings us to the 5th angel.

Back soon (GW)
In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #617 on: February 15, 2017, 02:44:17 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your replies will be a blessing to all who read them there is one small point I would like to expand on If I may

You said
Quote
The words, 'the earth', are repeated here to impress our minds with the fact that it is the earth itself that is being reaped, for it is 'the hour of His judgment' which has come (14:7)  So I do not agree that it is the rapture of the church that is the object of this reaping, Dave.  It is 2 Thess. 1:6-8 that we have here,  ---
 


I believe we are told of two harvests the first one by the son of man ( Christ ) which is.

 Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe this is Christ harvesting the church or if you like the rapture

then we have

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

To me this speaks plainly of two harvests the first one by our Lord the second by an angel the question being who are those of the second harvest and what is the purpose of the wine press bearing in mind that wine signifies the Holy Spirit
Is this process a cleansing process of some sort jest me looking for the good in everything.

And I have been wondering about this verse for a bit be interested in your opinion

 Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The wine of God to us who believe it is the Holy Spirit and eternal life.
But what would it be to those who follow the beast and unbelievers the wine to them becomes the wrath of God it washes away everything they have built up all the evil they have created will be removed would this not be a great torment to them.
This is jest a thought thats come into my head of late.

Love and Peace
Dave   


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #618 on: February 17, 2017, 04:12:57 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your replies will be a blessing to all who read them there is one small point I would like to expand on If I may

You said

I believe we are told of two harvests the first one by the son of man ( Christ ) which is.

 Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe this is Christ harvesting the church or if you like the rapture

then we have

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

To me this speaks plainly of two harvests the first one by our Lord the second by an angel the question being who are those of the second harvest and what is the purpose of the wine press bearing in mind that wine signifies the Holy Spirit
Is this process a cleansing process of some sort jest me looking for the good in everything. ............


'And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven,
he also having a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out from the altar,
which had power over fire;
and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,
Thrust in thy sharp sickle,
and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth;
for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth,
and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trodden without the city,

and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.'

(Rev 14:17-20)

Hi Dave (@davetaff)

The sixth angel calls to the fifth angel to gather the vintage. This takes in the final judgments of Revelation
The vine is the vine of the earth, and Deuteronomy 32 tells us the subjects of this judgement, and what it is that brings this judgment upon them. It needs to be read in it's entirety really, but the vine is mentioned in Deut. 32:32-35,

'For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah:
their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Is not this laid up in store with me,
and sealed up among my treasures?
To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence;
their foot shall slide in due time:
for the day of their calamity is at hand,
and the things that shall come upon them make haste.'

(Deu 32:32) 

* Here we have a -  fore-announcement of the sixth Vial (16:12-16), and the battle of Armageddon.
* Joel refers to this in 3:12-15,

'Let the heathen be wakened,
and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat:
for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe:
come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow;
for their wickedness is great.

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision:
for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
The sun and the moon shall be darkened,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining.'


* Compare also Zephaniah 3:8 and Isaiah 34:1-8:-

* Revelation 19:15 tells of this treading of the Wine-press. and Isaiah records it in (63:1-4)

'Who is this that cometh from Edom,
.. with dyed garments from Bozrah?
this that is glorious in his apparel,
.. travelling in the greatness of his strength?
I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel,
.. and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone;
and of the people there was none with me:

for I will tread them in mine anger,
and trample them in my fury;
and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,
and I will stain all my raiment.
For the day of vengeance is in mine heart,
and the year of my redeemed is come.'


* The description of these final judgments is awesome isn't it? It is epitomized in these few words describing the harvest and this vintage.  Threshing is the end of the one, and treading is the end of the other;  Palestine and Jerusalem the location.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #619 on: February 17, 2017, 04:46:22 PM »
Quote
Davetaff:
... ... And I have been wondering about this verse for a bit - be interested in your opinion

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The wine of God to us who believe it is the Holy Spirit and eternal life.
But what would it be to those who follow the beast and unbelievers the wine to them becomes the wrath of God it washes away everything they have built up all the evil they have created will be removed would this not be a great torment to them.
This is jest a thought that's come into my head of late.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi Dave (@davetaff)

Lets look at this verse, Rev.14:10:-

'And the third angel followed them,
saying with a loud voice,
If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb: ... '

(Rev 14:9,10)

* When you say, 'The wine of God to us who believe - it is the Holy Spirit and eternal life.', what are you referring to here, Dave? Are you referring to, 'the cup', which symbolizes the blood of Christ? For I can think of no other 'wine' relating to the believer. Sorry Dave.

* I believe that the cup of God's wrath will be as described here in the judgments that will fall upon the wicked in that day.

* I find verse 10 difficult to read, but we must not attempt to water it down, to make it more acceptable to our sensibilities.  It is as it is, in all it's awfulness for a reason.

'In the LORD put I my trust:
how say ye to my soul, 'Flee as a bird to your mountain?'
For, lo, the wicked bend their bow,
they make ready their arrow upon the string,
that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
The LORD is in His holy temple,
the LORD'S throne is in heaven:
His eyes behold,
His eyelids try, the children of men.
The LORD trieth the righteous:
but the wicked and him that loveth violence His soul hateth.
Upon the wicked He shall rain snares,
fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest:
this shall be the portion of their cup.
For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness;
His countenance doth behold the upright.'

(Psa 11:1-7) 

'But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom
 it rained fire and brimstone from heaven,
and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

(Luke 17:29,30)

 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #620 on: February 17, 2017, 05:27:02 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your posts very good your first post is a good answer to mine and I agree you have put a lot of work and thought into it.

your second post in answer to my thoughts on

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

As I said it was only a thought at the moment but it's quite persistent so I thought I'd air it on here as I value your opinion not sure if I've explained it very well.
Wine is the Holy Spirit from  God the blood of Christ to us who believe life unto life the life is in the blood.
what would the same blood be to the unbeliever but death unto death surely it would be a great torment  these verses of St Paul came to mind.

 2Co 2:15  For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
2Co 2:16  To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
2Co 2:17  For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #621 on: February 18, 2017, 11:43:38 AM »
Hi
Moving on to the next section hope I'm not going to fast if so we can always go back pleas say if you have any questions.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3  And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4  Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 15:5  And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

This is a interesting vision who are these standing on the sea of glass with harps singing the song of Moses and the Lamb I believe they must be a combination of Israel and the church of Christ this has to be after the rapture.

The next interesting piece is

  for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgements are made manifest.

I take this to mean all those who have not bean raptured those that remain my question is if they worship God why would they be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Love and Peace
Dave
(Response to P.73 Reply 581 (@davetaff)

'And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

(Rev. 15:1)

Hello Dave,

Now we come to another, 'sign', in Heaven. it is described as, 'great and wonderful', meaning that it is, 'great', in its nature, and extent, and importance, and results. For it is the completion of the 'covenant of marvels' which the Lord made with Israel in Exodus 34:10:-

'And He said," Behold, I make a covenant:
before all thy people I will do marvels,
such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation:
and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD:
for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee."'


* If this doesn't show who are the subjects of the book of Revelation, I don't know what does!

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, ... '

(Rev. 15:2-3a)

* Dave, I am so glad I did not miss sharing this with you, for I find this reference to 'the song of Moses' (Deut. 32:1-43)) just thrills my soul.  The fact that way back in the book of Deuteronomy, (31:19), God instructed Moses to write this song, as a witness for God against Israel (v.19).  For it details God's dealing with Israel from the beginning to the end, and to teach it to the children of Israel; which Moses did (Deut. 31- 14-22, 28-30 see also Exodus 15).  Now here, after so much time has passed, it is to be sung again.  It just magnifies God's foreknowledge, doesn't it, Dave? God surely does know the end from the beginning.

Praise His Name!

'And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb, saying,
.. Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty;
.. Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
.. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name?
.. For Thou only art holy:
.. For all nations shall come and worship before Thee;
.. For Thy judgments are made manifest.'

(Rev 15:3,4)

* These words in verses 3 & 4, are, 'The song of the Lamb'.  What a wonderful song this is, glorifying as it does the Lord God Almighty. This 'song of the Lamb' looks forward to the completion of all that 'the song of Moses' foretells.

* The worshippers here are defined as those who have come out of, and through, the great Tribulation. They are, 'Overcomers'.

* The words sung here, 'Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy Name?' bring to mind the words of the everlasting gospel (Rev.14:6,7) with it's call to 'Fear God, and give glory to Him'.

*The words, .. For all nations shall come and worship before Thee; For Thy judgments are made manifest.' I will consider next time (GW), along with verses, 15 5-8.

I shall have to stop here.
Looking forward to continuing (GW).

In Christ Jesus
Cariad







Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #622 on: February 18, 2017, 02:33:47 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for another good post I love the way you use the whole Bible in your posts I liked your reference to the song of Moses made me read through it thought it mite be an interesting topic to study one day.
Also you said about Revelations being about or for Israel maybe we can explore  this at a later date I don't want to go of on a tangent till you've caught up to where I left of.
Keep up the good work I'm sure there are many that will be blessed with your post.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #623 on: February 19, 2017, 05:48:10 PM »
(Continuing response to P.73 Reply 581 (@davetaff)

Hello again, Dave,

'And I saw another sign in heaven,
great and marvellous,
seven angels having the seven last plagues;
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass,
having the harps of God.
.. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
.. and the song of the Lamb, saying,
.. Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty;
.. just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
.. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name?
.. for thou only art holy:
.. for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
.. for Thy judgments are made manifest.'


Continuing on from my previous post, I would like to consider this, 'sign in Heaven', a little more; especially the words of, 'the song of the Lamb'.

* It is called, 'the song of the Lamb', because it is given by Him, and relating to Him.
* It is intended to tell us that regardless of the awful nature of the coming judgments, God is 'Holy' and 'Righteous' and 'True'
 
* The words, 'All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord:', this will take place during the millennial reign, when the judgments are completed . (See Isa.66:15.16.23), won't it?

'For, behold, the LORD will come with fire,
and with His chariots like a whirlwind,
to render His anger with fury,
and His rebuke with flames of fire.'
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many ....'

 ... ;And it shall come to pass,
 that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before Me
, saith the LORD.'


* See also, Zechariah 14:16,17, Psa. 66:1-7; Psa.72:1-4; Psa.86:8,9 and Zeph. 2:11.

* The reason all nations will come and worship Him, is because of His 'righteous judgments' which will be then made manifest.. The closing words of the song of Moses agree with this:-

'Rejoice, O ye nations, with His People:
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries,
And will be merciful unto His Land,
And to His People.'

(Deut. 32:41-43)

* See also, Psa. 76:8,9; Isa. 26:5,8,9; and Ezek.39:17,21.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad