Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18397 times)

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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #560 on: November 01, 2016, 08:39:13 AM »
Hi Dave, (@davetaff)

Having spilt tea over my computer keyboard, I am now struggling to get it to work, this message has been produced with difficulty, so I will not be able to take part until I get a new one.

 :huh:

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #561 on: November 02, 2016, 02:00:39 PM »
Hi Cariad
Sorry to hear that hope you are back soon I will continue with some other threads till your back.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #562 on: November 02, 2016, 06:26:37 PM »
Hi Dave, (@davetaff)

I am back sooner than I thought.  It was a matter of buying a new one, and thankfully we were able to get to the shop and pick one up quickly.

Back again to Revelation 13.
God Willing.

Cariad


Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #563 on: November 03, 2016, 03:42:53 PM »
Hi Cariad
Moving on to the next section not sure if you are finished with Rev 13 if not please continue we can come back to this.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here we have a different lamb the lamb of God but who are the 144.000 they were men of the earth ( could there be Women as well ) they are virgins what dose that mean many of the great men of scripture where married some more than once.
dose it mean as the church is seen as a women so also are false doctoring's and other religions and those who have gone out side the teaching of our Lord and his apostles.
I don't think they can be from Israel because they follow the Lamb which is Christ and Israel did not have access to the teachings of Christ although the OT prophets had visions of his coming.
Are these virgins those of the church who have bean faithful to there husband which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave       


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #564 on: November 04, 2016, 11:27:16 AM »
Hi Cariad
Moving on to the next section not sure if you are finished with Rev 13 if not please continue we can come back to this.

Rev 14:1-4 

Here we have a different lamb the lamb of God but who are the 144.000 they were men of the earth ( could there be Women as well ) they are virgins what dose that mean many of the great men of scripture where married some more than once.
dose it mean as the church is seen as a women so also are false doctoring's and other religions and those who have gone out side the teaching of our Lord and his apostles.
I don't think they can be from Israel because they follow the Lamb which is Christ and Israel did not have access to the teachings of Christ although the OT prophets had visions of his coming.
Are these virgins those of the church who have bean faithful to there husband which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave       

'And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having his Father's name written in their foreheads.'

(Rev 14:1)

Hi Dave, (@davetaff),

There is a great deal that we have not covered in regard to either the the Beast or the false prophet of chapter 13, but when we come to other chapters where they are again in the picture, we can possibly bring more light to bear on them then, can't we? So I am happy to pick up your point and discuss it.

* You ask the question, Dave:- ' Who are the 144,000?'

* The answer to that question is contained in Revelation 7.  This is the God's plan for securing the Remnant of the nation of Israel through all the judgments and persecutions which take place during the Great Tribulation, which will last for 3 1/2 years. In which God will ensure the 'sealing' off 144,000 people, taken from the twelve tribes of Israel.  Chapter seven is so precise in it's detail that there can be no doubt as to the identity of these people.  Compare for example Rev.7:2, with Matthew 24:29-31:-

'And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God:
and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,
to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth,
neither the sea, nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.'

(Rev 7:2-3)

'Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.'

(Matthew 24:29-31)

The events of, Revelation 7:2, precedes the Tribulation, but Matthew 24:29-31 takes place after it.  We learn from Matt. 24, that Angels are commissioned to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other. These two passages together show that the 'elect' in Matt. 24:31 belong to Israel, and not to the church. 

They are upon the earth during the Tribulation and this sealing, protects and preserves them.  This seal was visible to the eye, at least by spiritual agencies, for the locusts of Rev. 9:4 are directed to injure only those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads.  Just as in the days of the Patriarchs God could protect them saying, 'Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm' (Ps. 105:15), so it will be with His elect Remnant.

See also, Ezekiel 9:3-4
'And the glory of the God of Israel
was gone up from the cherub, whereupon He was,
to the threshold of the house.
And he called to the man clothed with linen,
which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
And the LORD said unto him,
"Go through the midst of the city,
through the midst of Jerusalem,
and set a mark upon the foreheads
of the men that sigh and that cry
for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."


In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #565 on: November 04, 2016, 12:07:23 PM »
Hi Cariad
Moving on to the next section not sure if you are finished with Rev 13 if not please continue we can come back to this.

Rev 14:1-4

Here we have a different lamb the lamb of God but who are the 144.000 they were men of the earth ( could there be Women as well ) they are virgins what dose that mean many of the great men of scripture where married some more than once.
dose it mean as the church is seen as a women so also are false doctoring's and other religions and those who have gone out side the teaching of our Lord and his apostles.
I don't think they can be from Israel because they follow the Lamb which is Christ and Israel did not have access to the teachings of Christ although the OT prophets had visions of his coming.
Are these virgins those of the church who have bean faithful to there husband which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave       

'And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder:
and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand,
which were redeemed from the earth.
These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
 being the firstfruits unto God
and to the Lamb.'

(Rev 14:1-4) 

Hello again, Dave (@davetaff)

* This vision is in heaven.  It tells us of those who will have come through the great Tribulation, and have been caught up to Heaven.  It is part of a larger episode, and is parenthetical (Rev.12:1-15:8), The previous vision on Earth told us of those who were slain because they refused to worship the Beast or receive his mark.  Those who were to die, have been killed; and those who were to be kept alive, have been kept alive (Rev.13:10) .  The worshippers of the Beast received his mark, and these received the mark of the Lamb (Christ) and of His Father in their foreheads.  This refers to the 144,000 sealed ones of Rev. 7. They had passed unscathed through the judgments of God, and through the persecutions of the Beast.

'And I looked, and, lo,
a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,
and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand,
having His Father's name written in their foreheads.'

(Rev 14:1) 

* This was the promise made to the overcomers in Rev. 3:12; and the 'seal' of Rev. 7:3. This sealing took place, as we have already seen, in Rev. 7, the object was that they should pass through the Tribulation unscathed to form the nucleus of the new nation.

* The vision is in heaven; for the singers stand before the Throne and they are with the Lamb.  He is not yet descended to the Earth.  This is also the heavenly Zion upon which the Lamb stands.  They are a comparatively small company, but these are the firstfruits to God and the Lamb; and the firstfruits are necessarily a small proportion compared with the harvest.   In Rev. 7:1-8 and 9, we have, 'firstfruits', and in Rev. 7:9-17 and Rev.15, the whole harvest, or the larger number.

* The heavenly voices, sing a new song before the throne, which only the 144,000 can know. Only those who have gone through the Tribulation can understand the song which celebrates it.   

* The singers are undefiled, undefiled by the fornication which will be part of the great religious system of the Anti-Christ during that terrible time of trouble and temptation, part of the great pagan systems of idolatry, which takes place under the covering of religion.  This company will be preserved, and for refusing to take part in it will suffer martyrdom (Rev.7:9-17; and Rev.15:1-4).

'These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.'

(Rev 14:4,5) 

* 'in their mouth was found no guile' - see 2 Thess. 2:11, 1 Tim. 4:3.

Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad








Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #566 on: November 04, 2016, 12:08:23 PM »
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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #567 on: November 04, 2016, 02:34:06 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your posts interesting but I'm not sure I agree with all that you say About (Rev 14:1-4)  you say This vision is in heaven on what do you base this statement is there any where in scripture which states mount Sion is in heaven.
You say the 144.000 are from Israel why the scripture tell us they follow the lamb.

 Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Israel did not follow the Lamb they crucified him I am willing to concede that there were those in Israel who done the will of God and God used to proclaim gods word through the holy Spirit but I'm not sure that's the same as   follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
To follow the Lamb would mean one would need to know who the Lamb was and what his message was I would think.
Or do you mean all the Jew's who converted to Christianity in the early church but that would mean they ceased to be Jews.

You Quoted

 See also, Ezekiel 9:3-4
'And the glory of the God of Israel
was gone up from the cherub, whereupon He was,
to the threshold of the house.
And he called to the man clothed with linen,
which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
And the LORD said unto him,
"Go through the midst of the city,
through the midst of Jerusalem,
and set a mark upon the foreheads
of the men that sigh and that cry
for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

This could well be a reference to the early church in Jerusalem who were being persecuted for preaching the gospel don't you think.

Love and Peace
Dave