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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #528 on: October 11, 2016, 04:23:49 PM »
Hi Cariad
I was just wondering if you are implying that the church will not be part in the time of the tribulation that they will be raptured and only Israel will go through the trials and tribulations mentioned in revelations forgive me if I'm wrong.
If it is so I was thinking of these words of our Lord

 Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I believe these words of our Lord describe the end times pretty well and here Jesus is speaking to his disciples the church not to Israel.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #529 on: October 11, 2016, 04:32:06 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post but I'm afraid I have trouble agreeing with it you said

Why did our lord say ( unto His servant John ) if John was not a servant  there are other text's.

He came unto his own,
and His own received Him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His Name:

Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.'

(Joh 1:11-13) 
 
* John was a 'Son', by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as both Saviour and Lord: also, being a Jew, he knew Him as his Messiah too.  He was also the servant of Jesus Christ by calling, as was Paul and Peter and all of the twelve, as Apostles, called and chosen.

* Those in Israel during the day of the Lord will believe in the returning Christ as their Messiah, their hope will be the restoration of of the Kingdom to Israel and the promises made to the Fathers concerning it.  The day of salvation by grace through faith will have passed.

Quote
davetaff:1Co 7:22  For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Jas 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The first of the verses (above) from 1 Cor. 7:22, came from a context of 'servant' and 'master', roles and relationships,  and so has nothing to do with being a servant of God in that sense: and James and Peter were 'servants' by calling, being already 'sons' by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote
davetaff:
Jest a few examples of the disciples calling them selves servants of Christ if they are not servants why do they say they are.
To say that revelation's which I consider to be very important to Christianity has nothing to do with it very strange and if it is for the Jews why put it in the bible where they most probably never read it.

* They, as I have said, are servants by calling, having also the sonship relationship through grace by faith.

* The Revelation Record will have it's place during that time, as it has in the intervening years, I have no doubt, otherwise it would not have been recorded, at God's instruction.  That is not our concern.  God knows, and that is what matters.

* We have the epistles of Paul which apply to our calling, so why would you want to deprive the Jew of what is theirs. All Scripture is for us, but not all is about us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #530 on: October 11, 2016, 04:43:00 PM »
Hi Cariad
I was just wondering if you are implying that the church will not be part in the time of the tribulation that they will be raptured and only Israel will go through the trials and tribulations mentioned in revelations forgive me if I'm wrong.
If it is so I was thinking of these words of our Lord

 Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I believe these words of our Lord describe the end times pretty well and here Jesus is speaking to his disciples the church not to Israel.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hello @davetaff,

When our Lord came, He came to, 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matt.15:24), He came to, 'confirm the promises made unto the Fathers'. (Rom.15:8) and to 'destroy the work of the Devil' (1Joh.3:8).  The twelve were to confine their ministry to Israel also, and to the diaspora (those of Israel living among the nations) following our Lord's death and resurrection.  Peter's epistles, and those of James confirm that they were the apostles to the circumcision, by their opening address. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, that was his title, and his epistles confirm that.

It is to the disciples and those who would believe through their testimony that our Lord spoke, it was essentially to Israel as a nation that He came.  Only with the laying aside (temporarily) of Israel at the end of the Acts's period, was salvation sent to the Gentile (Acts 28), up until then they could only share in the blessings of the Kingdom through Israel, following Acts 10 (Cornelius), and then for the specific purpose of causing Israel to emulate them, by believing and receiving Christ as their Messiah.

At the end of the age, Israel will take up their Divinely appointed role as Priests and Kings unto God, and will be instrumental in ministering to the nations.  That is why they needed to come to repentance during the Acts period, and will be the role they play ultimately at the end.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #531 on: October 14, 2016, 02:20:06 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your reply you said.

Quote
Hello @davetaff,

When our Lord came, He came to, 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matt.15:24), He came to, 'confirm the promises made unto the Fathers'. (Rom.15:8) and to 'destroy the work of the Devil' (1Joh.3:8).  The twelve were to confine their ministry to Israel also, and to the diaspora (those of Israel living among the nations) following our Lord's death and resurrection.  Peter's epistles, and those of James confirm that they were the apostles to the circumcision, by their opening address. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, that was his title, and his epistles confirm that.

It is to the disciples and those who would believe through their testimony that our Lord spoke, it was essentially to Israel as a nation that He came.  Only with the laying aside (temporarily) of Israel at the end of the Acts's period, was salvation sent to the Gentile (Acts 28), up until then they could only share in the blessings of the Kingdom through Israel, following Acts 10 (Cornelius), and then for the specific purpose of causing Israel to emulate them, by believing and receiving Christ as their Messiah.

At the end of the age, Israel will take up their Divinely appointed role as Priests and Kings unto God, and will be instrumental in ministering to the nations.  That is why they needed to come to repentance during the Acts period, and will be the role they play ultimately at the end.
 

I think everything you said above is true it all has a good scriptural foundation.
What Paul had to say in Romans came to mind about the branches

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So we have bean grafted into the vine ( Christ ) and unbelieving Jews have bean cut of but will be grafted in again dose this mean that we become part of Israel and so the saying ( And so all Israel shall be saved ) includes us.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #532 on: October 15, 2016, 08:13:57 AM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your reply you said.

I think everything you said above is true it all has a good scriptural foundation.
What Paul had to say in Romans came to mind about the branches

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So we have bean grafted into the vine ( Christ ) and unbelieving Jews have bean cut of but will be grafted in again dose this mean that we become part of Israel and so the saying ( And so all Israel shall be saved ) includes us.

Love and Peace
Dave

Quote
'@davetaff:
... does this mean that we become part of Israel, and so the saying ( And so all Israel shall be saved ) includes us?
'

Hello Dave, @davetaff,

No, Dave, it does not. For with the laying aside of Israel (temporarily) in unbelief,at the end of the Acts period, believers, both Jew and Gentile, are joined as one body in Christ.

Christ Himself, now risen and glorified, being their HEAD.(see Ephesians/Colossians).

Praise God!

* Paul in Romans eleven gives assurance that, 'all Israel', will be saved in that future day: whereas only, 'a remnant', were saved during the Acts period.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #533 on: October 15, 2016, 12:44:32 PM »
'And I stood upon the sand of the sea, (the abyss or bottomless pit - Rev.11:7)
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power
and his seat,
and great authority
.


* Having failed to destroy Israel (the woman's seed): the dragon (or Satan) is seen by John, in vision, standing on the shore of the sea.  Then the beast rises, as though at Satan's bidding, out of the sea, (or the Abyss).

* The description of the beast is explained thoroughly in chapter 17, but here a basic description is given.

'And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast, saying,
"Who is like unto the beast?"
"Who is able to make war with him?" '

(Rev 13:3-4) 

* Now we see the effect upon the whole earth of the war in heaven. When Satan and his angels are cast unto the earth.  Satan gives to the beast 'his power, his seat and his authority'.  Earthly power, and worldly dominion is coming to a head here, combined and united in one, the political sovereignty of the whole earth combined.  Daniel 2, and the image portrayed there needs to be considered together with this, doesn't it?

'And there was given unto him a mouth
speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him
to continue forty and two months.
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme His name,
and His tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

(Rev 13:5-8)

* Oh, for the ability to see this clearly!  I feel as though I am looking at one of those puzzles where a picture is hidden within another, and you have to look and look in order to see what is hidden there, and then when you do, you can never really understand just how you got there.  Yet, the detail is given, it will just take time and patience to try to piece together all that is given us, in order to comprehend it.  Those alive at the time of these events, will, with this Word before them, understand fully; whereas we are seeing as though in a glass - darkly.

*God in His wisdom has revealed it in this way, for reasons only He can know. Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad







Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #534 on: October 15, 2016, 02:55:58 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your replies you said

Quote
No, Dave, it does not. For with the laying aside of Israel (temporarily) in unbelief,at the end of the Acts period, believers, both Jew and Gentile, are joined as one body in Christ.

Christ Himself, now risen and glorified, being their HEAD.(see Ephesians/Colossians).
 

I understand that but will we be Christians or Jews or will these names disappear and we all be one in Christ or will there be two parts to the body of Christ.

next

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, (the abyss or bottomless pit - Rev.11:7)
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power, 
and his seat,
and great authority.

I believe the sea mentioned here is the sea of humanity the beast that rises is the man made organisations such as the UN EU on the service they may seam to do good but they deny God the animals mentioned here are world powers which do the bidding of the dragon.

 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast, saying,
"Who is like unto the beast?"
"Who is able to make war with him?" '
(Rev 13:3-4) 

The head that was wounded reminds me of

 Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

He's a crafty old devil so he is he dose not show himself but works behind the beast and the world goes after the beast and thinks its the way forward the light of the world how wrong they are.

And there was given unto him a mouth
speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him
to continue forty and two months.
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme His name,
and His tabernacle,
and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'
(Rev 13:5-8)

Its not only worldly organisations but political policies as well more and more we see Christianity being marginalised or integrated with other religions

like you say it's like a big puzzle I like to call it wheels with in wheels but I am sure he will reveal it bit by bit as we need to know.

Love and Peace
Dave 

 


 

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #535 on: October 18, 2016, 11:47:08 AM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your replies you said

I understand that but will we be Christians or Jews or will these names disappear and we all be one in Christ or will there be two parts to the body of Christ.

Hi Dave (@davetaff)

Thank you for your question.

Regarding,' the Church which is His Body', our earthly origins are of no concern, are they? For we are all 'one' in Christ Jesus, 'in spirit', aren't we? We all come to God for salvation, through faith in His only begotton Son, and receive the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the 'earnest' (or guarantee) of the future fulfillment of the gift of resurrection life which is in Christ Jesus. Our hope and sphere of blessing is in heavenly places, 'in Christ'.

Yet, Israel as a nation has promises yet to be fulfilled for them, which they will enter into in God's time, which pertains to the earth, and the Kingdom.

Yet again, out of Israel has/and will be called another company which is called 'the Bride of the Lamb', made up of those who were & will be, 'Overcomers,' in their generation, and, 'loved not their lives unto death'.  They, like Abraham, look for a city, 'which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God '(Heb 11:10 , 'a better country, that is, an heavenly:wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.[/i]'(Heb 11:16).  That city being, 'The New Jerusalem', which will come down out of heaven to the earth.

'And there came unto me one of the seven angels
which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me, saying,
"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."
And he carried me away
in the spirit
to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city,
the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God,"

(Rev 21:9,10)

So, God in His wisdom, has called separate companies of people, to inhabit different spheres, and perform different functions.  When those functions have fulfilled their purpose, and Christ has put all enemies under His feet, God being then 'all in all',  I believe the fact that we are typified as 'the Body of Christ' , and that there is a company called, 'the Bride of the Lamb' (Christ) is not without reason. 

*God knows, and His will, will be fully done, in His time, so I will not conjecture.
 
Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad