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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #520 on: October 09, 2016, 04:25:01 PM »
hi Cariad
thanks for your post some interesting points but I still feel revelations is about Christ and his church which is his bride the bride of Christ and the bride of the lamb are one and the same .
so why do I believe revelations is about Christ and his church because the first verse of revelations says.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

( to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass)
I believe his servants here are his church throughout the ages ( not Israel)
( shortly come to pass ) these things would begin to happen soon after John had the vision it could not concern Israel because Israel was dead when they rejected Christ they were rejected but they will be resurrected in the last day maybe that process has already started as Israel is back in its own land after 2000 years but it still has a long way to go to posses all the territory god has promised them.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Who is the bride and who is the husband I say it's Christ and his church what is the new Jerusalem I would say it's the church the body of Christ.

Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The new Jerusalem is not bricks and mortar but a spiritual building built up of the faithful

 1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

This is the new Jerusalem

Love and Peace
Dave       

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #521 on: October 09, 2016, 04:28:00 PM »
'And the serpent cast out of his mouth
water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

(Rev. 12:15-17)

* In Exodus it was a 'sea' through which Israel had to pass to get to the wilderness, and it was a miraculous intervention which accomplished it for them.  Here it is a flood, 'like a river', which drives her into the wilderness for 42 months, but this also will require a miraculous deliverance.  The first was 'literal', so why should this one not be?

'And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.'


* The sea in Exodus, 'helped the woman' (Israel) by swallowing up the forces of the armies of Pharaoh, and so why should not the earth do the same this time, by swallowing up the forces of Satan?  It will be a time of earthquakes and great physical disturbances. (see Isaiah 11:15,16).

* In Isa. 59:19, we can read of the enemy coming in like 'a flood', just before 'the Redeemer shall come to Zion,' and when Gentile times shall come to the full. 

* The earth once opened to swallow the host of Dathan and Abiram in Num. 16, so it can do so again. Also, in Micah 7:15, it says, 'According to the days of the coming up out of the land of Egypt, I will show unto him marvellous things.'

And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'


* Having been thwarted in his attempt to destroy the seed of the woman, who has been, 'caught away to God and to His throne.' he turns against the remnant of her seed.  This faithful remnant is spoken of in other parts of Revelation, so there can be no mistaking who they are. (Rev. chapters 7, 8, and 13:15).

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


 

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #522 on: October 09, 2016, 04:36:16 PM »
'And I stood upon the sand of the sea,
and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns,
and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.'

(Rev 13:1)

* Here the Holy Spirit gives an outline description of the beast only, but in chapter seventeen He explains it more fully, following the vision in which  John is shown the woman, spoken of as, 'the whore' in Rev. 17:1-6, of which we spoke briefly in earlier entries. (on pages 63-65, entries:#499, 504, 506, 510, 511-515).  The identity of 'the whore' being given in Rev 17:5 & 18:- 

------------------------

The Beast:
'The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;
and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,
whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,
when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.'

(Rev 17:8 )

The sea:
'And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest,
where the whore sitteth, (Babylon)
are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. "
'

(Rev 17:15) 

The ten horns:
 'And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them:
for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings:
and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.'

(Rev 17:12-14)

'And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast,
these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked,
and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.'

Rev 17:16,17)

* We do not have to conjecture about either the identity of the woman, or the beast, or anything else in the book of Revelation.  Only read it and believe it, and praise God that He has told us in advance what to expect, and what the outcome will be.  He is in control, and nothing and no-one can go beyond what God has allowed.  All these things have a time allotted to it, and no more.  God's will, will be done.  To the praise and the glory of His Holy Name.

Praise Him!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #523 on: October 10, 2016, 11:31:14 AM »
The description of the beast continues in the verses which follow in chapter 13:2-7:-

'And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard,
and his feet were as the feet of a bear,
and his mouth as the mouth of a lion:
and the dragon gave him his power,
.. and his seat,
.... and great authority.
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast, saying,
.. "Who is like unto the beast?
.. "Who is able to make war with him?
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
.. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
.... to blaspheme his name,
......  and his tabernacle,
..........  and them that dwell in heaven.
 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
.. and to overcome them:
.... and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.'


* He is described as a 'leopard'  (Greece) - Daniel 7:6,
* His feet as, 'a bear' (Medo-Persia) 
* His mouth as a, 'lion's mouth' (Babylon)

* Where is the Roman empire here, in any form?  Rome cannot be at the same time one of the heads, and the beast at the same time. No, here we have the sovereignty of the world under Satanic power, for 'the whole world lieth (in the power of) the wicked one.'

* Satan empowers the beast, and the beast operates as a man.  The world will see, and follow after the man, without realising that he is the beast of Revelation, or that his power is satanic.

How glad we should be to be in Christ,
Far above all principality and power.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #524 on: October 10, 2016, 02:57:00 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your posts and scriptures If I may linger on the woman for a bit It seams to me there are three women here in revelations

Rev_12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
This is Israel

Rev_12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This is the church only they have the testimony of Jesus.

Then we have

Rev 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

This is Satan's wife created by him to deceive the world

another reason I believe it's about the church of Christ is in the beginning of revelation's our Lord speaks to the seven churches which have nothing to do with Israel.

Love and Peace
Dave   


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #525 on: October 10, 2016, 08:47:12 PM »
hi Cariad
thanks for your post some interesting points but I still feel revelations is about Christ and his church which is his bride the bride of Christ and the bride of the lamb are one and the same .
so why do I believe revelations is about Christ and his church because the first verse of revelations says.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

( to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass)
I believe his servants here are his church throughout the ages ( not Israel)
( shortly come to pass ) these things would begin to happen soon after John had the vision it could not concern Israel because Israel was dead when they rejected Christ they were rejected but they will be resurrected in the last day maybe that process has already started as Israel is back in its own land after 2000 years but it still has a long way to go to posses all the territory god has promised them.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Who is the bride and who is the husband I say it's Christ and his church what is the new Jerusalem I would say it's the church the body of Christ.

Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The new Jerusalem is not bricks and mortar but a spiritual building built up of the faithful

 1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

This is the new Jerusalem

Love and Peace
Dave     

Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

You referred to Revelation 1:1, the word, 'servants', and to the words, 'shortly come to pass'.

'The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him,
 to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John ...'


Have you considered the fact that the word, 'servant', is used peculiarly of God's people Israel?

The Church of God could in a certain sense be called servants of Christ, yet it is distincly said to them, 'Thou art no more a servant but a son.' (Gal.4:7).  Whereas God's People Israel are constantly referred to as 'servants'.  Here in Revelation, the word is used 14 times as a specific and proper title for those who are the subject of the book: and though a son may be called, 'a servant', a servant can never be called a son.

As members of the Body of Christ, we are 'in Christ', and have received the 'sonship spirit', whereby we cry, 'Abba', ie., 'My Father'.
 'If children, then heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ.' (Rom. 8:15-17,Gal.4:1-7 )

* If the Revelation is all about the Church of God, why are the people never spoken of as sons, but always by the title used in the Old Testament, who were under the law?

* Regarding the words, 'shortly come to pass', it must be remembered that when John received these words He was 'in Spirit', in, 'the Lord's day', so the timescale relates to 'that' day, which was a future day.

* However, another consideration is the fact that it was very possible at the time of writing that our Lord could have returned very quickly, and, 'the day of the Lord', would then have been within the timescale of the day that John received it.

* During the Acts period, the epistles written during that time, spoke of the Lord's return as imminent, but  it depended on the repentance of Israel. Not until the end of the Acts period was the door of repentance for Israel finally closed. It awaits a future day now, and it is then that the events of Revelation will take place.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #526 on: October 10, 2016, 09:20:08 PM »
Hello Dave (@davetaff)

You called to my attention the 'churches' ('assemblies', or 'called-out companies') addressed at the beginning of the Revelation, as evidence that this book is not written to the People of God,( Israel) but to the Church. Please consider the following points in regard to this:-

* In Rev. 2:1,8,12,18; Rev.3:1,7,14, are the words, 'unto the angel of the church of -------'.
The chief officer in the Synagogue was called an 'archisynagoge' (or Ruler of the Synagogue), and after him came the, 'Shelach Tzibbur' (or 'the angel of the assembly'), who was the mouthpiece of the congregation.  His duty was to offer up public prayers to God for the whole congregation, as the messenger (or angel) of the assembly.  He spoke to God for them.

* The word, 'Synagogue', is used in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9, and this also marks these, 'epistles' written to the churches (or assemblies), as Jewish.

* The Revelation records (by vision, and prophecy) the events which will take place, 'hereafter', in 'the day of the Lord'.  The whole book is concerned with 'the Jew', 'the Gentile', and 'the Earth', but not with 'the Church of God', or with 'Christendom'.

* But there will be a people for God on the earth during these eventful years.  eg., the remnant of believing Israelites, the 144,000 sealed ones, 'the great multitude', and the other bodies of faithful ones spoken of throughout the book (see chapters 7,11,12 and 17).  These constitute the believers in the seven assemblies to whom the book of Revelation is particularly addressed. The instructions in these 'epistles' are for them primarily, and to us only by application, and for our learning.

Praise God!  For His provision.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #527 on: October 11, 2016, 02:59:32 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post but I'm afraid I have trouble agreeing with it you said

Quote
You referred to Revelation 1:1, the word, 'servants', and to the words, 'shortly come to pass'.

'The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him,
 to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John ...'

Have you considered the fact that the word, 'servant', is used peculiarly of God's people Israel?
   

Why did our lord say ( unto His servant John ) if John was not a servant  there are other text's.

1Co 7:22  For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Jas 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jest a few examples of the disciples calling them selves servants of Christ if they are not servants why do they say they are.
To say that revelation's which I consider to be very important to Christianity has nothing to do with it very strange and if it is for the Jews why put it in the bible where they most probably never read it.

Love and Peace
Dave