Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18415 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #512 on: October 06, 2016, 10:18:10 PM »
'The church that is at Babylon,
elected together with you,

saluteth you;
and so doth Marcus my son.'

(1Peter 5:13)
 
Hello @francis drake,

Thank you for responding.

With respect, I believe that Peter is referring to 'The church that is at Babylon', as written in 1 Peter 5:13, and that the word, 'Babylon' is not being used by him as a euphemism as you claim.  Peter was obviously writing from there.  His letter was written to 'strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.'  Those in Babylon were spoken of as being, 'elected together with' them.  There were representatives from Mesopotamia at Pentecost (Acts 2:9,10), they would have taken the gospel message back with them, and a church would have been formed.  These are the 'dispersed' Jewish Christians for whom the twelve were responsible.
Babylon was a well used metaphor for Rome and that's why Peter and many other church fathers used it as such

Quote
* This was only a 'mystery' (or secret) because it had not been revealed.  It is revealed, however, in Rev. 17:5,

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. '

(Rev 17:5 )

'And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,
which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Rev 17:18) 

'Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,
shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying,
"Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city!
 for in one hour is thy judgment come.'

(Rev 18:8-10) 

* Babylon the Great is the mystery.
* The woman is representative of Babylon. 
* Rome and Romanism is just one of many corrupt streams that flow from Babylon and all that it represents.

I believe the Bible is intended to be believed, not explained away.
I am no more explaining away that you have been doing in your posts!
Until Jesuits Bellarmine and Ribero of the Counter Reformation pumped disinformation into the Protestant church, the whole of the early church understood Peter and Johns reference to Babylon as meaning Imperial Rome!!!
Quote
In Christ Jesus
Cariad
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #513 on: October 07, 2016, 12:22:47 AM »
Babylon was a well used metaphor for Rome and that's why Peter and many other church fathers used it as such
I am no more explaining away that you have been doing in your posts!
Until Jesuits Bellarmine and Ribero of the Counter Reformation pumped disinformation into the Protestant church, the whole of the early church understood Peter and Johns reference to Babylon as meaning Imperial Rome!!!

'The church that is at Babylon,
elected together with you,
saluteth you;
and so doth Marcus my son.'

(1 Peter 5:13)

Hello @francis drake,

Do you have verifiable evidence for what you say? If so, perhaps you will tell me where I can find it. 

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline francis drake

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #514 on: October 07, 2016, 09:59:46 PM »
'The church that is at Babylon,
elected together with you,
saluteth you;
and so doth Marcus my son.'

(1 Peter 5:13)

Hello @francis drake,

Do you have verifiable evidence for what you say? If so, perhaps you will tell me where I can find it. 

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

I've got various books on the matter some written over a century ago. However I did a very quick google on "early church fathers knew babylon was rome" and below is the first website.

http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

I'll let you look further.
http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #515 on: October 07, 2016, 10:03:00 PM »
I've got various books on the matter some written over a century ago. However I did a very quick google on "early church fathers knew babylon was rome" and below is the first website.

I'll let you look further.

Thank you, @francis drake, for taking the time to look for this information.  I will take a look.

--------------
Later:

I have indeed, 'taken a look', and have read a lot about Rome, but cannot find a reference to Babylon being Rome, or of Babylon being a euphemism for Rome.  I'm sorry, f.d. perhaps it's me,  but I truly cannot find anything there which would confirm this.

Shall we let it rest there, and move on now, yes?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #516 on: October 07, 2016, 11:57:41 PM »
'And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.


(Rev 12:14)

Hello again,

The wilderness became a refuge for Israel in the past, and it will do again. 

'And there shall be an highway for the remnant of His people,
which shall be left, from Assyria;
like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.'

(Isa 11:16) 

'" ... And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people,
and there will I plead with you face to face.
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt,
so will I plead with you,
" saith the Lord GOD.
"And I will cause you to pass under the rod,
and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
And I will purge out from among you the rebels,
and them that transgress against me:
I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn,
and they shall not enter into the land of Israel:
and ye shall know that I am the LORD. ...".

(Eze 20:35-38)

'Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
and bring her into the wilderness
,
and speak comfortably unto her.'

(Hos 2:14) 

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #517 on: October 08, 2016, 11:21:03 AM »
'And the serpent cast out of his mouth
water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'

(Rev. 12:15-17)

This is curious isn't it?

Back soon (God willing)
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #518 on: October 08, 2016, 02:41:22 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your posts Before we move on I would just like to say if anyone would like to continue the discussion on Babylon Frances maybe they could start a new thread.

So moving on to  (Rev. 12:15-17) I believe the woman here is the church the body of Christ as I have said before I believe Israel is the first Adam and Christ the last Adam so what happened to Israel will also Happen to Christ and his Church.
who are the church is it all those who believe or is it a select body chosen by Christ and the rest of the believers the children I'm beginning to think it is so.

 'And the serpent cast out of his mouth
water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

What is the flood I believe it is false doctoring's and where do they flow from I think through the established earthly church's that includes RC GO CE JW and what ever other banners one set over the door the old adage is true divide and conker.
So who are the real church of Christ I don't know but God knows I believe it's a body of believers from all denominations and they are hidden.
How did the earth help the woman we swallowed the false doctoring's the dragon spewed out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'
(Rev. 12:15-17)

The remnant of her seed is all her children me and you and all those who have bean taught false doctoring but God judges the Heart and if our heart is full of Love for God then we are his Children and we will be taught properly in the Kingdom which is to come.

Love and Peace
Dave
   
   

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #519 on: October 09, 2016, 10:34:56 AM »
Quote
@davetaff:
So moving on to  (Rev. 12:15-17) I believe the woman here is the church the body of Christ as I have said before I believe Israel is the first Adam and Christ the last Adam so what happened to Israel will also Happen to Christ and his Church.
who are the church is it all those who believe or is it a select body chosen by Christ and the rest of the believers the children I'm beginning to think it is so.

Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

'The Woman', is spoken of in Rev.12:1, as, 'a wonder ( or 'sign') in heaven', and is described as, '(Rev 12:1)  'a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars', which identifies her with Jerusalem, and the twelve tribes of Israel, re. Joseph's dream in Genesis  37:8-9.  Whereas the Bride of the Lamb, is spoken of, and described, in Rev 21:9-10, as, 'that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:'.

* 'The Bride of the Lamb', is not spoken of as 'the Bride of Christ', anywhere in Scripture.  The Lord Jesus Christ is called, 'The Lamb of God' in John 1:29,36, yes, and also as, 'the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.' in Rev.13:8, but that does not justify our transferring the word, 'Christ', where, 'Lamb' is used in Revelation 21.  The words that the Holy Spirit uses are for a purpose, and it is important that we use the same words, and not impose another of our own choosing.  The danger being that we will interfere with the purpose of the Holy Spirit in His choice of word by so doing.

* The heavenly Jerusalem, spoken of as, 'The Bride of the Lamb', which comes down out of heaven to the new earth, is so spoken of, because it is inhabited by those who have, like Abraham, been faithful in their generation (Heb.11:10), and have 'overcome', like those who come through the tribulation period without worshipping the Beast, or bearing his mark.  They are of Israel, and will reign with Christ for a thousand years.  They are not the Church which is spoken of as, 'The Body of Christ'.  God does not mix His metaphors.

* The New Jerusalem  is a literal city, and the flood will also be a literal flood, there is no reason for us to read into it anything at all other than what is written for our learning by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Cariad