Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18435 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #504 on: October 04, 2016, 03:08:15 PM »
'And the woman was clothed (same word as in 12:1) with purple and scarlet
and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls .....
the woman whom thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the Kings of the earth'
(Rev. 17:4 & 18)

* This city's name is Babylon, and in it is brought to it's head the mystery of iniquity (Rev. 17:5)

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'

It gives us the picture of great wealth and I was thinking dose it represent the great financial houses around the world is this Babylon the great they seam to be a law unto them selves they seam to be above politics untouchable the only have one thing on there mind to accumulate as much wealth as possible no matter what the cost to the rest of humanity Paul had this to say about it.



The woman is not the great finance global houses but the prostitute church of Rome with whom they trade. Historically Papal Rome has ruled over all the kings of all the known earth, crowning, deposing them, or overruling them at will.
For example, Henry 8th was unable to make his own decisions in England without permission from Rome. He solved that problem by removing the supremacy of Rome in a series of Acts of Parliament.

You are partially right though in mentioning the great financial houses around the world. They in many ways have more power than presidents and kings. They represent the beast that the woman rides on.
It is the great global banking houses and industrial corporations that were behind the drive to keep Britain in the EU, the final world empire before the return of Christ.
Quote

I think here the over comers are the Church the bride of Christ when they are joined together they become one and as one they will rule the world with Christ King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
As Adam and Eve became one flesh so our Lord the last Adam and his Eve the church become one body maybe that's what Paul ment when he said.

 
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #505 on: October 04, 2016, 04:06:15 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post a lot of good stuff you said.

Is it not true that heaven is where God is in which case Heaven comes down to us.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heaven on earth God will be with us all those who are saved Jew and gentile alike and we will all be together on this wonderful planet which was created to be a paradise which mankind has ruined.
God will restore this earth of it is such a wonderful and beautiful place and I for one can?t wait.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi Dave (@davetaff),

Thank you for your response.  Yes, Praise God! There will be a new heaven and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness, and I, like you, look forward to that.

* Our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended 'far above all heavens' and when He finally 'appears in glory', the Church which is His Body will 'appear' with Him there.  This is my hope.

'If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above,
not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
'

(Col 3:1-4) 

* There are different callings and different spheres of blessing, and a new heaven and earth to inhabit.  As for me, all I know is what is written, and I look forward to being part of the company He has called me into, and to know His loving kindness in the ages to come.

'But God, who is rich in mercy,
for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together
in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come
He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace
in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.'

(Eph 2:4-7) 

What a glorious hope!
What wondrous grace!

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #506 on: October 04, 2016, 04:59:29 PM »
Quote
@davetaff:
Quote
Cariad
And the woman was clothed (same word as in 12:1) with purple and scarlet
and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls .....
the woman whom thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the Kings of the earth'
(Rev. 17:4 & 18)

* This city's name is Babylon, and in it is brought to it's head the mystery of iniquity (Rev. 17:5)

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'
It gives us the picture of great wealth and I was thinking dose it represent the great financial houses around the world is this Babylon the great they seam to be a law unto them selves they seam to be above politics untouchable the only have one thing on there mind to accumulate as much wealth as possible no matter what the cost to the rest of humanity Paul had this to say about it.

Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

The Scripture quoted from Revelation 17, makes it very clear that the woman is the representation of the city of 'Babylon'.  Which takes us right back to Babel, the city built in defiance of God's known will.  Satan has ever used mankind to thwart God's plans, and the building of this city, by Nimrod was just one exhibition of it.  Babylon was the fountain-head of all idolatry.

* Babylon is the subject of the prophetic books of the Old Testament, and the book of Revelation in the new.  The only places where what may be called Babylonianism enters into Paul's epistles, are where in Romans 1:21-32 the moral consequences of this great opposing system are reviewed, and where in 2 Timothy 3:1-4 they are envisaged as reappearing in the last days, when Babylon and it's awful teaching will come once more to a head under the dictatorship of the Man of Sin.  If 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 were to be studied together with Revelation 13, it will be seen that there again Babylonianism is referred to.

* The present dispensation, is a parenthesis in time, and it's last days will lead up to the awful conditions which characterize the close of gentile dominion that is set forth in such books as Daniel or the Revelation.  They lead up to, but do not belong to that day.  For the day of the Lord lies outside the scope of the dispensation of the Mystery.

* Prophecy shows that Jerusalem is the Lord's answer to the move made by Satan at the inception of Babel, and it is these two cities, Babylon and Jerusalem, which occupy this book of Revelation.

* I cannot agree with 'francis drake' concerning Rome, for Babylonianism was in place for thousands of years before Rome appeared on the scene of history. 

I am still in the process of considering this, Dave, but it is clear that all the nations of the world are corrupted by this system already.  As you say Dave, the woman of Revelation 17, who is a representation of Babylon, gives a portrayal of great wealth, and I think of the words of Satan to our Lord in Luke 4:5-7:-
 
'And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain,
shewed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
And the devil said unto Him,
"All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them:
for that is delivered unto me;
and to whomsoever I will I give it.
If thou therefore wilt worship me,
all shall be thine.'

 
* Satan is indeed the god of this world, and He is the power behind the Babylonian system which epitomizes what we see around us today in this world system, isn't He.  But, Praise God!  His days are numbered, and He knows it.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad


 

Online davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #507 on: October 05, 2016, 02:37:18 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your last two posts some very good scriptures to give us hope I don't think we are to far apart.

I thought we mite look at this section

 Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

When do you think this happened or will happen this looks like heaven was cleansed I'm thinking maybe after the crucifixion because it goes on to say.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The woman that brought forth the man child would be Israel the man child is Christ.
when Rome sacked Jerusalem Israel was dispersed through out the world this is the flying into the wilderness  How long is
  a time, and times, and half a time  I think maybe 2500 years.
Danial has some thing similar to say,

Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


Love and Peace
Dave   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #508 on: October 06, 2016, 11:12:42 AM »
Hi Dave (@davetaff),

Thank you for your encouragement, and for continuing to share your thoughts on this subject. I look forward to considering it with you.
Quote
@davetaff:
Revelation 12:7-11
When do you think this happened or will happen?
This looks like heaven was cleansed, I'm thinking, maybe after the crucifixion because it goes on to say. ...

'And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out,
... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
... which deceiveth the whole world:

he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.'


* Michael, described by an angel to Daniel as, 'one of the chief princes', and referred to as, 'Michael your prince', 'who standeth for the children of thy people' (Israel), is, we are told in Jude, an Archangel.  It is he who instigates this fight with the dragon and his angels, for he is Israel's angelic 'prince', who stands up for them and fights for them.  It is they, and the 'man-child' which are the object of Satan's attacks, for he wants to destroy that holy, 'seed of the woman', promised from the beginning (Gen. 3).(Dan.10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 1:9), who is prophesied to be the means of his own destruction, and Who will rob him of his dominion in the earth, and destroy his power.

Praise God!

'And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death.'

(Rev 12:10-11)

* I can understand why you should think as you do on the question, 'When did this happen?' Dave.  Yet, I believe that it is yet future.
For the words, spoken from heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ', can be said, then, because Christ is about to take up his power and reign, as we saw in Rev 11:15,

'And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and He shall reign for ever and ever.'


* Also, looking at what is said in Revelation 12:10-11: Satan is spoken of as being, 'the accuser of the brethren',  and that is continuing to this day: and those 'who loved not their lives unto the death', are both past, present and yet future, for there is a fight which is continuing, and will continue, until the events of the Lord's day is through; Satan finally defeated, and the last enemy (death) destroyed.

'... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.' (1 John 3:8b)

Praise God!

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #509 on: October 06, 2016, 11:16:00 AM »
Quote
@davetaff
Revelation 12:12-14

The woman that brought forth the man child would be Israel
The man child is Christ.
When Rome sacked Jerusalem Israel was dispersed through out the world this is the flying into the wilderness 
How long is a time, and times, and half a time?  I think maybe 2500 years.
Danial has some thing similar to say.

(Dan 7:25)  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(Dan 7:26)  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

'Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.'

(Rev 12:12-14) 

Hi Dave, (@davetaff)

Great rejoicing in heaven, but 'woe' to the inhabitants of the earth. Why?  Because Satan and his angels have been cast down to the earth out of heaven.  We have not experienced this 'Woe' yet. For it has not yet happened, it is a future event.  The events that follow this decent is beyond anything that the world has experienced so far.  One of the experiences that will mark this event will be an earthquake of great magnitude, 'Such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty and so great ' (Rev. 16:18)

'a time, and times, and half a time' = 2,260 days (3 1/2yrs). This is said in anticipation, for the war in heaven occurs before the flight of the woman, and, indeed, leads to that flight.  This flight, therefore, is consequent on the war, and not on the catching up of the child of God and His throne. This is made clear in verse 14 (above), and the words, 'And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth'

See: Dan. 7:25 (you have already referred to this), Dan.12:7 and Rev. 11:2,3.

* The woman is carried away to a place prepared for her, and not scattered as Israel was following the destruction of Jerusalem after the resurrection of our Lord.  She will be nourished in this place for the rest of the period until the kingdom is set up on earth.  It is to this period that the Lord's prayer, 'Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven', applies.  These words will be the heartfelt utterance of this persecuted company, and while experiencing again the manna in the wilderness, they will pray with real understanding, and not with vain repetition, 'Give us this day our daily bread', or, 'the bread that cometh down upon us'.  The word rendered 'daily' in the prayer occurs nowhere else in Scripture: it is a word which can only be fulfilled by the repetition of the miracle of the manna, and this is what does take place.

Oh! Don't you feel, like me, Dave, that there are such depths and heights, how can we hope to comprehend it with our finite minds.

Psa.139:6  'Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.'

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline francis drake

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #510 on: October 06, 2016, 02:34:03 PM »
* I cannot agree with 'francis drake' concerning Rome, for Babylonianism was in place for thousands of years before Rome appeared on the scene of history. 

That's the whole point @Cariad. Babylon/Babel has always been there.

The dream of Nebuchadnezzar showed him as the head of Gold followed by silver/Medo-Persia, followed by bronze/Greece, followed by iron and clay/Rome. Yet Babylon didn't start at Nebuchadnezzar, it started after the flood when they rebelled against God and built that famous tower up to heaven.
Genesis11v4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.


Gen11v6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.


In response, God divided the languages bringing the work to a halt. But that same demonic strong man just continued by other means. Ever since that time, the spirit of Babel/ Babylon has been secretly at work trying to create world dominion by war or subterfuge.
Here is Peter writing from Rome and using Babylon as a euphemism.
1Peter5v13She (ie. the church) who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.
The church fathers regularly used babylon as a code for Rome.


 Mystery simply means hidden, and if it was Babylon back in Nebuchadnezzar's time, and Babylon back in Peter and John's time, and Babylon when Jesus returns, then mystery/hidden Babylon has been there all along and is with us now.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #511 on: October 06, 2016, 03:00:12 PM »
... Here is Peter writing from Rome and using Babylon as a euphemism.
1 Peter 5v13She (ie. the church) who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.
The church fathers regularly used babylon as a code for Rome.


'The church that is at Babylon,
elected together with you,

saluteth you;
and so doth Marcus my son.'

(1Peter 5:13)
 
Hello @francis drake,

Thank you for responding.

With respect, I believe that Peter is referring to 'The church that is at Babylon', as written in 1 Peter 5:13, and that the word, 'Babylon' is not being used by him as a euphemism as you claim.  Peter was obviously writing from there.  His letter was written to 'strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.'  Those in Babylon were spoken of as being, 'elected together with' them.  There were representatives from Mesopotamia at Pentecost (Acts 2:9,10), they would have taken the gospel message back with them, and a church would have been formed.  These are the 'dispersed' Jewish Christians for whom the twelve were responsible.

Quote
@francis drake:
Mystery simply means hidden, and if it was Babylon back in Nebuchadnezzar's time, and Babylon back in Peter and John's time, and Babylon when Jesus returns, then mystery/hidden Babylon has been there all along and is with us now.

* This was only a 'mystery' (or secret) because it had not been revealed.  It is revealed, however, in Rev. 17:5,

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. '

(Rev 17:5 )

'And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,
which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Rev 17:18) 

'Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,
shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying,
"Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city!
 for in one hour is thy judgment come.'

(Rev 18:8-10) 

* Babylon the Great is the mystery.
* The woman is representative of Babylon. 
* Rome and Romanism is just one of many corrupt streams that flow from Babylon and all that it represents.

I believe the Bible is intended to be believed, not explained away.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad