Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18409 times)

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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #496 on: September 28, 2016, 09:11:05 AM »
Hi Cariad
Thank you for your last two posts there very good and very informative a blessing to many I'm sure my overall impression is that these vision's and signs stretch over a long period of time past present and future.
It's interesting that your posts takes us back to Genesis to find the answers to the symbolism used in revelations maybe we should put Genesis a revelations side bye side and see what more transpires.
I like what you said  I agree with this I believe this 6000 year period started with Noah a new creation 6000 years 6 days and we have jest entered the 6th day exiting times.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Yes, @davetaff, it is interesting the way that Revelation and Genesis is linked by so many comparisons. 

* In the back of my Bible, there is are appendices: and in App. 3 is a list of the comparisons. I have found a link (below) which will make it possible, for those who wish to, to read and look up these comparisons for themselves, for to type them out would take such a long time. :)

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html (the list of comparisons between Revelation and Genesis)
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_appendixes_to_companion.htm (the list of appendices themselves)

Quote
* Genesis is the seed-plot of the whole Bible. It is essential to the true understanding of its every part. It is the foundation on which Divine Revelation rests; and on which it is built up. It is not only the foundation of all Truth, but it enters into, and forms part of, all subsequent inspiration; and is at once the warp and woof of Holy Writ.

Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad



http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_appendixes_to_companion.htm

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #497 on: September 28, 2016, 10:03:48 AM »
'And there appeared a great wonder (or, 'sign') in heaven;
.. a woman clothed with the sun,
.... and the moon under her feet,
...... and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
........ And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder (or, 'sign') in heaven;
.. and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns,
.... and seven crowns upon his heads.
...... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
........ and did cast them to the earth:
.......... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
................. for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
.. and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
.... And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God,
.... that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.''

(Rev 12:1-6) 

Hello again,

Let's consider the words, '... and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. ...'
We know from Psalm 2:9, that it is the child of the woman which shall rule all the nations with a rod of iron:-

'Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree:
the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."
"Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

(Psalm 2:6-9)

* The identity of the Son spoken of in Psalm 2, is confirmed in Acts 13:33, and Hebrews 1:5,

' ... God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,
in that He hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm,
"Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee."

(Acts 13:33)
 
'For unto which of the angels said He at any time,
"Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?"
And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"

(Heb.1:5)

*See also the words of God the Father, spoken at the occasion of His Son's baptism.

'And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him,
and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying,
"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

(Matthew 3:16,17)

* And at His transfiguration:-

'While He yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him."

(Mat 17:5) 

* The final words there in Matthew 17:5 stand out in bold relief to me, 'hear ye Him'.  How very much mankind needs to hear and believe the words of Christ Jesus our Beloved Lord.  Both those words spoken during His earthly ministry, but also those words spoken by Him, through His messengers, the Apostles, especially Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who the risen Lord used to minister to us, who are of the nations.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you for this opportunity to consider these wonderful words with you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad




 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #498 on: September 28, 2016, 04:28:02 PM »
Hi Cariad
another good post  thank you you said

Quote
Let's consider the words, '... and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. ...'
We know from Psalm 2:9, that it is the child of the woman which shall rule all the nations with a rod of iron:-
   

Of course this can only be a reference to our Lord Jesus Christ it cannot be anyone else the vision depicts our Lords coming the first time as the son of man born of woman.
But I wonder if this heavenly vision also depicts his second coming the woman the church the moon under her feet is Israel the church brings forth our Lord  through its preaching of the gospel through the holy spirit.
I believe the earthly things and heavenly things mirror each other there's nothing new under the sun

 Ecc 1:9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10  Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

When Christ came into the world the devil used Herod to kill all the young children in an attempt to kill Christ but failed Christ was sent to Egypt as was Israel ( Pharaoh also tried to kill all the male children born to Israel prompted by the devil to prevent Moses and ultimately Israel being born as a nation )
But this last time the devil will be thwarted he will be captured and locked away.
taken
As Israel was sent into the wilderness so was our Lord but after his resurrection he was taken up to heaven and the church was dispersed among the nations ( into the wilderness )
I have wondered where the Church and Christ separated so that what happened to Adam and Eve would not happen to the last Adam maybe the answer is in  The Song of Solomon.

Interesting I'm back in Genesis again maybe these verses may give us a clue.

Isa 46:9  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The end is revelations the beginning is Genesis so is Genesis not only telling us the beginning but also the end I think so.

Love and Peace
Dave

       

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #499 on: September 28, 2016, 09:47:55 PM »
Quote
@davetaff:
... The end is revelations the beginning is Genesis so is Genesis not only telling us the beginning but also the end I think so.

Hello @davetaff,

Interesting thoughts, Dave, I will think about this.
Did you see the link to the list of contrasts between Genesis and Revelation, by the way? (Reply #496)
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html

----------------------

* Staying with the woman a moment, Dave, 'clothed with the sun', with 'the moon under her feet', and 'upon her head a crown of twelve stars'.  A contrast is evidently intended with the woman of chapter 17,

'And the woman was clothed (same word as in 12:1) with purple and scarlet
and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls .....
the woman whom thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the Kings of the earth'

(Rev. 17:4 & 18)

* This city's name is Babylon, and in it is brought to it's head the mystery of iniquity (Rev. 17:5)

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'


* In Rev.12: the sign of the woman, also represents a city (Jerusalem, and the system for which the city stands).  The one is false, the other the true; the one is supported by the beast, the other is attacked by the dragon.  In Genesis 37:9 the sun, moon and eleven stars represent Jacob, his wife, and his eleven sons (Joseph being the 12th).  The woman is Jerusalem, the city of David and of Israel.  She is represented as being on the eve of giving birth to a child.

* The other sign seen in heaven: a great fiery red dragon, has the insignia of the final phase of Gentile dominion, with it's seven heads ten horns and seven crowns, stands before the woman, ready to devour her child as soon as it should be born.  The sun, moon and stars, the woman's emblems, seem to indicate a power from heaven.  This is in direct contrast with the seven heads and ten horns and the seven crowns, which plainly indicate the powers of the beast that support the woman of Revelation 17:3.

* The dragon in the sign is said to draw the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.  This is taken by some to refer to the fall of Satan away back in the beginning, and maybe it does, but there is no necessity to leave the period under review, for the reference to the stars is interpreted in Rev. 12:9, 'and his angels were cast out with him,'  that is, at the moment of their defeat by Michael (Rev.12:7).  The chief interest of the passage however is the man-child that is born,

'And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God,
and to His throne.'

(Rev 12:5) 

* To whom does this refer? Undoubtedly the words in the first instance are prophetic of Christ Himself, as we find them in Psalm 2.  However, in Revelation 2:26,27 these words are quoted also of the overcomer,

'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;

as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of My Father.'

(Rev 2:26,27) 

* It would seem that there, in that future day, this man-child is born.  This cannot refer to Christ personally, but it can indicate that company of faithful overcomers who share the millennial reign of Christ.  The catching up of this man-child to God and His throne precedes the tribulation, it is a complete escape from that day of trouble.  In Matthew 24:4-8 we can read of the beginning of the birth pains, 'false Christ's', 'wars', 'famines', 'pestilences', and 'earthquakes'.  These have already been indicated in the opening of the seals.  They lead the way for the tribulation under the beast and false prophet, and when they reach their peak, the man-child is born.

* After the man-child (re. the overcomers) is caught up, the woman flees into the wilderness. So in Matthew 24, after the period spoken of as the beginning of birth pains, which synchronise with Revelation 12:2, we read of affliction and hatred, of offence and betrayal, of false prophets who deceive.  At the same time a gospel activity is indicated witnessing to all nations before the end comes  (Matt. 24:4).

Thought provoking isn't it, Dave?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Reference made to:-
'This Prophecy' by CW. Welch and.
'Commentary on Revelation' by Dr. E.W. Bullinger


 



http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #500 on: September 29, 2016, 07:19:49 AM »
Quote
The end is Revelation the beginning is Genesis so is Genesis not only telling us the beginning but also the end? I think so.

Hello @davetaff,

I am going to begin a thread, in which I hope you will explain your reasoning, expressed above, and give examples from Genesis which will confirm what you have said.

http://www.1faith.co.uk/bible-buddies/genesis-the-seed-plot-of-the-whole-bible-and-revelation-compared/msg60251/?topicseen#msg60251

With love in Christ Jesus
Cariad



       
http://www.1faith.co.uk/bible-buddies/genesis-the-seed-plot-of-the-whole-bible-and-revelation-compared/msg60251/?topicseen#msg60251

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #501 on: September 29, 2016, 04:04:59 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for another excellent post got my two little grey sells working overtime.

I was thinking about this.

 'And the woman was clothed (same word as in 12:1) with purple and scarlet
and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls .....
the woman whom thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the Kings of the earth'
(Rev. 17:4 & 18)

* This city's name is Babylon, and in it is brought to it's head the mystery of iniquity (Rev. 17:5)

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'

It gives us the picture of great wealth and I was thinking dose it represent the great financial houses around the world is this Babylon the great they seam to be a law unto them selves they seam to be above politics untouchable the only have one thing on there mind to accumulate as much wealth as possible no matter what the cost to the rest of humanity Paul had this to say about it.

1Ti_6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil.

* To whom does this refer? Undoubtedly the words in the first instance are prophetic of Christ Himself, as we find them in Psalm 2.  However, in Revelation 2:26,27 these words are quoted also of the overcomer,

'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of My Father.'
(Rev 2:26,27)

I think here the over comers are the Church the bride of Christ when they are joined together they become one and as one they will rule the world with Christ King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
As Adam and Eve became one flesh so our Lord the last Adam and his Eve the church become one body maybe that's what Paul ment when he said.

 Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Love and Peace
Dave

     

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #502 on: October 04, 2016, 09:51:42 AM »
Quote
@davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
'And the woman was clothed (same word as in 12:1) with purple and scarlet
and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls .....
the woman whom thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the Kings of the earth'
(Rev. 17:4 & 18)

* This city's name is Babylon, and in it is brought to it's head the mystery of iniquity (Rev. 17:5)

'And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'

It gives us the picture of great wealth and I was thinking dose it represent the great financial houses around the world is this Babylon the great they seam to be a law unto them selves they seam to be above politics untouchable the only have one thing on there mind to accumulate as much wealth as possible no matter what the cost to the rest of humanity Paul had this to say about it.

1Tim. 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Hi @davetaff,

Thank you for your gracious response, and for this question. I am going to take time over replying to this, I need to see what the Scriptures have to say.

Quote
@davetaff:
* To whom does this refer? Undoubtedly the words in the first instance are prophetic of Christ Himself, as we find them in Psalm 2.  However, in Revelation 2:26,27 these words are quoted also of the overcomer,

'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of My Father.'
(Rev 2:26,27)

I think here the over comers are the Church the bride of Christ when they are joined together they become one and as one they will rule the world with Christ King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
As Adam and Eve became one flesh so our Lord the last Adam and his Eve the church become one body maybe that's what Paul ment when he said.

 Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I agree that the overcomers of Revelation will inhabit the Holy City and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, and of these will be the 144,000 sealed.  In Revelation 2:26-27 and when mentioned elsewhere in Revelation, 'the Overcomer' is one who comes through the tribulation and does not worship the Beast or bear his name.  The Church which is the Body of Christ is not the subject of Revelation, so does not figure among that company.

The sphere of blessing for the Church which is the Body of Christ, is in heavenly places, not in the New Jerusalem (which comes down out of heaven to the new earth), and their 'reign' will be associated with the inhabitants of that sphere. See, Eph.1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10:- 

Eph.1:3
'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places
in Christ:
'


Eph.1:20 
'Which He wrought in Christ,
when He raised Him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand
in the heavenly places,


Eph.2:6 
'And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together
in heavenly places
in Christ Jesus:'

 
Eph.3:10 
'To the intent that now
unto the principalities and powers
in heavenly places
might be known
by the church
the manifold wisdom of God
,'


Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #503 on: October 04, 2016, 02:20:21 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post a lot of good stuff you said.

Quote
I agree that the overcomers of Revelation will inhabit the Holy City and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, and of these will be the 144,000 sealed.  In Revelation 2:26-27 and when mentioned elsewhere in Revelation, 'the Overcomer' is one who comes through the tribulation and does not worship the Beast or bear his name.  The Church which is the Body of Christ is not the subject of Revelation, so does not figure among that company.

The sphere of blessing for the Church which is the Body of Christ, is in heavenly places, not in the New Jerusalem (which comes down out of heaven to the new earth), and their 'reign' will be associated with the inhabitants of that sphere. See, Eph.1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10:-     

Is it not true that heaven is where God is in which case Heaven comes down to us.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heaven on earth God will be with us all those who are saved Jew and gentile alike and we will all be together on this wonderful planet which was created to be a paradise which mankind has ruined.
God will restore this earth of it is such a wonderful and beautiful place and I for one can?t wait.

Love and Peace
Dave