Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18374 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #488 on: September 21, 2016, 12:46:24 PM »
Hello @davetaff

You are right, there is no substitute for personal study.  My books are for reference only.  I bring all that I read and hear to the Word of God for confirmation.  I do not attempt to impose my own understanding upon it.  For it is the Holy Spirit's Word, and He will administer it to us in His time and in His way.

I think this may be the time to say, 'Goodbye'

May God's perfect will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

In Christ Jesus
Chris


 :)

Hi Cariad
Please don't go if I have said something to offend you then I apologize unreservedly I believe your posts have been a great asset to many readers so please continue as I do enjoy our exchanges and found them a great sauce of information and comfort.
So please change your mind and continue.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #489 on: September 22, 2016, 01:26:55 AM »
I was enjoying reading this topic @Cariad and I like the different views and opinions

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #490 on: September 26, 2016, 02:22:28 PM »
Hi
resuming with the revelations discussion and hopping Cariad will join us.

 Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Is the woman the church clothed with the sun the sun being Christ the moon under her feet Israel but who is the child.
The Crown representing the 12 apostles.
On the other hand is the woman Israel the moon the church which is the child waiting to be born the crown of stars the 12 tribes
(144 000 )
Is this a spiritual birth when the church is raptured and united with Christ.
More questions than answers.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #491 on: September 27, 2016, 09:25:55 AM »
Hello there @davetaff and @Question,

Forgive me.  I thought that it was better if I left the discussion, for we look at the Scriptures so differently.  You had not offended me, I am sorry if I gave the impression that you had.

I have only entered the forum again this morning (27th September), and reading your entrieswould like to continue with you if I may.

Thank you both.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Cariad


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #492 on: September 27, 2016, 10:43:07 AM »
Hi
resuming with the revelations discussion and hopping Cariad will join us.

 Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Is the woman the church clothed with the sun the sun being Christ the moon under her feet Israel but who is the child.
The Crown representing the 12 apostles.
On the other hand is the woman Israel the moon the church which is the child waiting to be born the crown of stars the 12 tribes
(144 000 )
Is this a spiritual birth when the church is raptured and united with Christ.
More questions than answers.

Love and Peace
Dave     

'And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
... a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet,
and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 
and she being with child cried,  travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered.'

(Rev 12:1,2)

Hello again, 

'There appeared a great wonder in heaven'
Quote
'wonder' = [Strong's #G4592 - Gr.sēmeion] Translated:- miracle, sign, token, wonder.

* What follows is a 'sign', it is therefore not to be taken literally. We need to find the reason for it, it's object, and what it is intended to convey. Does the Bible itself provide this?

* It is written in Gen.10:14-19, that the moon and the stars were given not only to divide the day from the night, and to give light upon the earth, but for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years. They are signs of something or someone to come.

* Let's look at the sign itself:-
'A woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:'.  This takes us back to Genesis 37.  This is the only place in the whole of the Bible where we can find anything corresponding to this sign.  In Gen. 37:9 it says,

'And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream,
and told it his brethren, and said,
"Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold,
the sun
and the moon
and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."


* His fathers response in Gen. 37:10, give us the interpretation of it,

'And he told it to his father, and to his brethren:
and his father rebuked him, and said unto him,
"What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?
Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed
come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
"'


* So, Joseph saw a similar sign, and both he and his father Jacob understood it at once, and and interpreted it correctly, as we can see from what follows in the record of Genesis concerning Joseph and his brothers. 

* Joseph, himself was the twelfth star, his brothers being the eleven referred to in Gen. 37:9.  This is the nation of Israel in embryo.  The sons of Jacob, who was the son of Isaac, about whom it is said, 'in Isaac shall thy seed be called' (Gen. 21:12).

Praise God!

* What else does the sign say:-
'And being with child she crieth out, being in travail, and being in pain to bring forth.'

- When could this ever be spoken of the Church?
- What is the Church's travail?
- What is the man-child which the Church brings forth?

* This 'sign' exactly expresses the position and condition of the true Israel all through the history of the nation.

* The promise of Gen. 3:15, concerning the coming, 'seed' of the woman to crush the head of the great dragon, was fundamental to Israel's faith.  So, here in Revelation 12, we are taken back to the beginning of evil and to Satan's opposition to the work of God.  This great crisis of human history, shows how 'the mystery of God' and 'the mystery of Iniquity' will be finished; and take some 6,000 years to work out.  The birth of that 'seed' became, therefore, the object of Israel's hope; the subject of Israel's prophets; and the 'joy' of Israel's mothers when a man was born into the world (John 16:21).

'A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow,
because her hour is come:
but as soon as she is delivered of the child,
she remembereth no more the anguish,
for joy that a man is born into the world.'


* Israel is, time and again, compared to a woman, and a married woman, in the Old Testament (eg., Isaiah 54).  Also in her time of rejection, to a widow (Isa. 47; Luke 19); and a divorced woman (Isa. 50; Jer. 3); but not so the Church. 

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #493 on: September 27, 2016, 11:33:23 AM »
Hello there @davetaff and @Question,

Forgive me.  I thought that it was better if I left the discussion, for we look at the Scriptures so differently.  You had not offended me, I am sorry if I gave the impression that you had.

I have only entered the forum again this morning (27th September), and reading your entrieswould like to continue with you if I may.

Thank you both.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Cariad

Hi Cariad
Thank you for this post you've made an old man very happy I would not worry to much about our different points of view I think sometimes there a good thing we must remember there are quite a few guests who read these board's not all maybe are believers so if what we say awakens there interest to seek Christ then its well worth while.

Love and peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #494 on: September 27, 2016, 01:03:57 PM »
* Another sign follows, - the woman's enemy.

'And there appeared another wonder (or, 'sign') in heaven;
and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads
and ten horns,
and seven crowns upon his heads.'

(Rev. 12:3)

* There can be no doubt as to who this dragon is, can there? Rev.12:9, is clear about this, 'And the great dragon ...  that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world':

* He is said to have ' seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. These are symbols of his earthly dominion, as 'the prince of the power of the air' (Eph. 2:2), and, 'the prince of this world' (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11): even the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, did not dispute this (Luke 4:5-7).

The colour 'red', denotes fire and blood, a symbol of his cruelty and blood-thirstiness (John 8:44, 1 John 3:12), and of the war which he makes 'in heaven' and 'on earth'
The heads and horns and crowns are the sign of earthly power, gathered up in himself: and he can give that power to whoever he wills (Luke 4:6,7; Rev. 13:2).  -  This is the woman's enemy.

--------------------------------

'And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth: ... '

 
*  The 'woman' is the 'sign' of the Jewish nation as a whole; and the object and action of the Devil could not be more clear.

* Here in this verse, we are taken back to the beginning of things; even to Satan's first rebellion, and to the angels who fell with him.  This is the 'sign' of Satan's power among the angels; as the heads and horns are a 'sign' of his power among men on the earth. 'and his tail draggeth down the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth.' So, it would seem that the third part of angels followed him in his great rebellion.

--------------------------------

' ... and the dragon stood  (or. 'stands') before the woman
which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.'

(Rev 12:4b)

* What a 'sign' this is, isn't it?  Taking us back to the events which date, 'from the foundation of the world'.
The issue being the government of the earth, which the Dragon has usurped since the creation of man, and his fall.

* The word, 'stood', should be, 'stands', for it is a continuing opposition, which has spanned this ages, it is not just a passing event. 

* As soon as it became clear that the seed of the woman should one day finally crush the serpent's head, (that old serpent, the Devil and Satan): Satan took his stand before the woman (Israel) in order to destroy her seed as soon as it should be brought forth.  He tried time and again to prevent it's birth.  This has been the great conflict of the ages. 

* The first attempt was in Gen. 6:1, when Satan attempted to corrupt the whole of mankind, and he succeeded in so far that only one family remained uncontaminated, and was saved by means of the ark God provided through Noah. Nothing but Divine intervention saved the race and preserved mankind from total overthrow. 

* The second attempt was in Exod. 1, with the attempt to destroy all the male children of Israel at their birth.  Satan's object, through Pharoah, was to destroy the male line altogether, making the birth of, 'the seed of the woman,' impossible.   Again it was Divine intervention which defeated Satan's plans.  So it continued, and there was an occasion when the line of the seed was reduced to one man, yet God's purposes prevailed.

Praise God!

This was a spiritual conflict, and is the same conflict which we see here in Revelation 12.  It raged, and came to a climax with the death of Christ, but yet, 'God raised Him from the dead'.

 Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

 




Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #495 on: September 27, 2016, 02:25:49 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thank you for your last two posts there very good and very informative a blessing to many I'm sure my overall impression is that these vision's and signs stretch over a long period of time past present and future.
It's interesting that your posts takes us back to Genesis to find the answers to the symbolism used in revelations maybe we should put Genesis a revelations side bye side and see what more transpires.
I like what you said
Quote
and take some 6,000 years to work out 
I agree with this I believe this 6000 year period started with Noah a new creation 6000 years 6 days and we have jest entered the 6th day exiting times.

Love and Peace
Dave