Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18447 times)

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Online davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #480 on: September 17, 2016, 11:26:07 AM »
well it's hermeneutics is'nt it ?

letting the bible speak for itself would mean that we put to death anyone seen picking uo sticks on the sabbath [for example] Numbers 15:32-36;

It is about understanding the bible by seeking and searching

I am not sure how I can interpret the bible by using the bible especially when it comes to the book of revelations  :D

Hi Guardian
The verse you mention above I found interesting but I don't want to derail this thread so I thought I'd move it to the thread I started on the law hope you don't mind.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #481 on: September 18, 2016, 12:36:22 PM »
well it's hermeneutics is'nt it ?

letting the bible speak for itself would mean that we put to death anyone seen picking uo sticks on the sabbath [for example] Numbers 15:32-36;

It is about understanding the bible by seeking and searching

I am not sure how I can interpret the bible by using the bible especially when it comes to the book of revelations  :D

Hi @Guardian,

This again, is another subject isn't it? :)

Paul said, in 1 Corinthians 2:13,

'We speak not the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth,
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.'


* The spiritual things we are to compare are the words of the Holy Scriptures, the words of God the Holy Spirit: 'the subject matter',' the words used', all have comparisons within His Word, that we can refer to, to gain understanding, or further insight.

Where the book of Revelation is concerned, there are many references in the Old Testament prophets and the psalms which can be found to give insight on what is being said.  (eg., see #465 & #469)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #482 on: September 19, 2016, 09:46:28 AM »
Hi there,

The words of the twenty-four elders (Rev.11:16-18), include seven things which they celebrated.  These are all anticipatory, and will take to the end of the book to be finally fulfilled.

'And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying,
"We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power,
and hast reigned.

.... And the nations were angry,
...... and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
.... and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
...... and to the saints,
........ and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.'

(Rev 11:16-18) 

* No more do we hear a call for repentance, for the witness of The Two Witnesses of God has finished with the evidential miracles associated with it.  All further testimony is withdrawn, and vengeance is to now take it's course.

* This third vision 'in heaven' closes with the words of Rev. 11:19. 

'And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in His temple the ark of His Testamen
t:
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings,
and an earthquake, and great hail.'

(Rev 11:19)
 
* The heavenly Temple is opened.  Called in Rev. 15:5, 'the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven.'  This Temple  upon which pattern the earthly tabernacle and temple were modelled (Exodus 25:40 and Hebrews 9:23). It discloses the Ark of the Covenant, and brings to our remembrance the Covenant-keeping God of Israel, Whose promises to them will be fulfilled, and their enemies judged.

* It is from this temple that the judgement which follow proceed from (Rev, 14:15,17; Rev.15:5 [& chapter]; Rev.16:17).
This tells us that these judgments are associated with the restoration of His People Israel, and of the fulfilment of all His covenant promises, concerning the Land (Gen. 15) and the throne (2 Sam. 7), which were unconditional and therefore certain and sure.

Praise God!

* The Ark of the Old Covenant was concealed: but is now revealed, and displayed as a token of Israel's salvation and of their enemies' destruction.  The 'secret' of God is finished (Rev.10:7), because the Temple is now open and the Ark revealed.

* Under this covenant is to be fulfilled all that was announced in the Song of Zacharias (Luke 1:68-79); but which, owing to Christ's rejection, has been since in abeyance.

* What a blessed token of assurance this is to God's people Israel.

We, as the Church of God in Christ Jesus, do not figure in the book of Revelation, it is all about Israel and God's promises to them.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad







Online davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #483 on: September 19, 2016, 04:11:21 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thank for putting us back on track a very good post full of information and scripture always a good combination the only thing I'm not to sure of is.

Quote
We, as the Church of God in Christ Jesus, do not figure in the book of Revelation, it is all about Israel and God's promises to them.   

On what do you base this I agree Israel have different promises and covenants but don't you think that revelations is for everyone in your post you said.

Quote
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
...... and to the saints,   


I always thought the prophets where Israelite's and the saints part of the church the body of Christ now you have me thinking always a good thing.
Do you think revelations should be divided up into two Jew's and Christians or maybe three Jew Christian and the rest.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #484 on: September 19, 2016, 08:57:05 PM »
Quote
davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
We, as the Church of God in Christ Jesus, do not figure in the book of Revelation, it is all about Israel and God's promises to them. 
... On what do you base this ...

?And He said,
Behold, I make a covenant:
before all thy people I will do marvels,
such as have not been done in all the earth,
nor in any nation:
and all the people among which thou art
shall see the work of the LORD:
for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

(Exodus 34:10)


Hi @davetaff,

It is the fulfilment of this covenant with Israel which is the great subject of the Apocalypse.

* If we were to count up the number of Old Testament passages quoted or alluded to in the New testament, we would find that the gospel of Matthew has a very large number, amounting in all to 92.  The Epistle to the Hebrews comes higher still with 102 .  Both these books are connected in a special manner with Israel. Matthew, stands out among the four Gospels as being especially Jewish in its character.  And the Epistle to the Hebrews was especially written to Hebrews.

* What do we find when we turn to the book of Revelation?  There are no less that 285 references to the Old Testament.  This in itself indicates that there is a very special connection with the Old Testament, and with Israel, for it is they who are the subjects of it, and they will understand it in a way that the people of the nations can never do. (Bagster's Bible)

The Church is not the subject of Old Testament prophecy.

* In Ephesians chapter three, 'the mystery of Christ' is referred to, and we are told that though the subject of Old Testament prophecy, it was only revealed to the apostles and prophets of the New Testament (Eph. 3:5,6).  The prophets of the Old Testament searched diligently, but could not discover it. (1 Peter 1:10-12/see also, Luke 24:45)

* Whereas, 'the mystery', concerning the Body of Christ itself, was hidden in God, and never the subject of Old Testament prophecy.  It was not revealed to anyone except Paul, while in prison at Rome, following the laying aside of Israel in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period (Eph.3:9 and Col.1:26).

* The resurrection hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ takes place before the events of Revelation.  In Revelation we do not see the coming of the Lord to take away His Church, but, the revelation of the events which shall take place after the Church has been 'received up in glory'

* The events of Revelation will take place during 'the day of the Lord', when He shall come, not in grace, but in judgment; not in mercy but in wrath. 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #485 on: September 20, 2016, 09:02:39 AM »
Quote
davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
... and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, ...... and to the saints,   

I always thought the prophets where Israelites and the saints part of the church the body of Christ now you have me thinking always a good thing.
Do you think revelations should be divided up into two Jew's and Christians or maybe three Jew Christian and the rest.

'And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.'

(Rev.11:18)   

Hello @davetaff,

Re: ' ... to thy servants the prophets ... '

* This reference to, 'thy servants the prophets', is found in Rev. 10:7 too,

'But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished,
as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.'


* In 2 Kings 9:7:- 
'And thou shalt smite the house of Ahab thy master,
that I may avenge the blood of my servants the prophets,
and the blood of all the servants of the LORD,
at the hand of Jezebel.'


* See also (Daniel 9:6,10) (2 Kings 17:13 &  23)  (2 Kings 21:10)  (2 Kings 24:2)

* The Old Testament prophets have a pre-eminent place in the coming kingdom (not in the Church of God), see Luke 13:28, Matt.5:10-12.

'There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,
and all the prophets,
in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out.'

(Luke 13:28) 

'Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad:
for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.'

(Mat 5:10-12)

-----------------------------------------

Re: ' ... and to the saints ... ' 

* This is a special term for the Old Testament saints, and is not to be confused with the use of the word in Paul's epistles, where it is applied to the members of the Body of Christ, or with angels, of whom the word is also used in such passages as Deut 33:2.  In Exodus 22:31, it is used of holy men under the Law, as also in Psa. 16:3; Psa. 30:4; 31:23; 34:9; 50:5.

The 'saints' spoken of here in Revelation 11, are those spoken of in Daniel 7:18: 'the saints shall take the kingdom' (see verses 22,27).  These are the 'saints' against whom the Wild Beast will 'make war' (Dan. 7:21,25).  These are the 'elect' of Matt. 24:31; Luke 18:7; and the 'saints' elsewhere spoken of in the book of Revelation (in chapters, 13:7,10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; 20:9).  These have their reward under this seventh Trumpet, and we can see it actually bestowed on them in chapter 20:4.  This is the reward referred to in the Gospels, in such passages as Matt. 10:41,42; 16:27; 25:34.  Rev. 2:23; 22:12.

Praise God!

Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad









Online davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #486 on: September 20, 2016, 04:10:29 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thank you for a very good post well presented and lots of good scripture to back it up but I am still a little sceptical about Revelations is only about Israel I will need to mull it over and read it again maybe several times time well spent.

You Said
Quote
* I am indebted to the books on my shelves for these replies, for I am not skilled enough in the Word of God myself to be able to have knowledge of all of these references at my fingertips.  This is a vast subject, which seems vaster with each reading, doesn't it?   

Like you I started to read everything I could lay my hands on then it began to dawn on me everyone had there own interpretation some said one thing and some said something else bit like on here.
so one day I said to myself how dose scripture speak to me so I tried to forget everything I've read not to difficult with my memory and starting with Genesis I read the bible from cover to cover I did this several times and thing started to fall into place for me of course it's a life long mission or like you say a vast subject we will not know everything till we come into the kingdom.

one of the problems I had was the books I was reading were written by academics and with someone like me with a limited education it was not easy then I thought would God make it so difficult to understand his  message when Christ came into the world he preached to the ordinary man in the street most of whom could not read and write.
so do we have to learn Hebrew Greek and Aramaic to be able to understand God message I don't think so.

So I always ask the question what dose Gods word say to me.

Love and Peace
Dave         

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #487 on: September 20, 2016, 08:24:30 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thank you for a very good post well presented and lots of good scripture to back it up but I am still a little sceptical about Revelations is only about Israel I will need to mull it over and read it again maybe several times time well spent.

You Said
Like you I started to read everything I could lay my hands on then it began to dawn on me everyone had there own interpretation some said one thing and some said something else bit like on here.
so one day I said to myself how dose scripture speak to me so I tried to forget everything I've read not to difficult with my memory and starting with Genesis I read the bible from cover to cover I did this several times and thing started to fall into place for me of course it's a life long mission or like you say a vast subject we will not know everything till we come into the kingdom.

one of the problems I had was the books I was reading were written by academics and with someone like me with a limited education it was not easy then I thought would God make it so difficult to understand his  message when Christ came into the world he preached to the ordinary man in the street most of whom could not read and write.
so do we have to learn Hebrew Greek and Aramaic to be able to understand God message I don't think so.

So I always ask the question what dose Gods word say to me.

Love and Peace
Dave         

Hello @davetaff

You are right, there is no substitute for personal study.  My books are for reference only.  I bring all that I read and hear to the Word of God for confirmation.  I do not attempt to impose my own understanding upon it.  For it is the Holy Spirit's Word, and He will administer it to us in His time and in His way.

I think this may be the time to say, 'Goodbye'

May God's perfect will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

In Christ Jesus
Chris


 :)