Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18482 times)

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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #440 on: September 02, 2016, 11:17:10 PM »
Hi Cariad
Jest a thought it's generally thought that God is outside of time so in the lords day everything would be jest one big now would John see everything that has happened and will happen he would have full knowledge of all history and future
Jest a thought.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi @davetaff,

Yet events are spoken of in terms of time perameters - months, weeks and days, so time still operates in The Lord's Day, doesn't it? 

In Christ Jesus
Chris


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #441 on: September 03, 2016, 12:04:33 AM »
What keeps coming into my mind is the three and a half years the same time as our Lords ministry at his first advent.
We know he was full of the Holy Spirit so is this the two witnesses they were in the grave 3 or 3 1\2 days is John recounting the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord.
I can't believe he is saying the same thing will happen again in the future which brings into question is revelations about past and future events.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hello again, @davetaff,

Our Lord was raised to life in Jerusalem after three days, and the two witnesses after a similar period. Like Him they ascend into heaven, but unlike Him, they ascend immediately on their resurrection. Whereas our Lord seeing Mary Magdalene outside the tomb, tells her not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended to His Father.  Yet when He sees Thomas, later, He asks Him to handle Him and see that He was not a spirit, but flesh and bones; so He must have ascended and returned in that period before the two incidents, mustn't He? For there was no longer the request that He not be touched. He spent forty days teaching His disciples before He finally ascended to God's right hand.

To think that the same power with which Christ was raised from the dead, and by which these two witnesses were raised, is now working in us!  How amazing that is, isn't it.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

:)

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #442 on: September 03, 2016, 01:14:57 AM »
'And the same hour
was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake
were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were aggregated,
and gave glory to the God of heaven'

(Rev.11:13)

Giving glory to God here, apparently, is not praising God, but exhorting Him, not in penitence but by reason of the terror they felt.  The same use of the phrase for, 'giving glory', is used in Luke 4:15,  but soon the same people attempt to take the life of the Lord Jesus (Luke 4:29).  It is not truly the giving of glory to God.

Similarly, in an emergency, the name of God is on man's lips, but their heart is far from Him, isn't it?

Here it is, 'the God of Heaven' who is acknowledged, not Jehovah, Who as their covenant God was known and loved, but a God at a distance, unknown and feared.

The notes in my Bible margin tell me that the first use of the title, 'God of heaven', is used in 2 Chron.36:23, when God's People, Israel, were (Loammi, or, 'not my people'), and Jehovah had withdrawn from their midst.  It is the title peculiar to the Times of the Gentiles, while God acts from heaven, and not from between the cherabims as Jehovah the God of Israel, or as, 'the Lord of all the earth' (His millennial title).  Other occurrences (Ezra 1:2; Ezra 5:11,12; Ezra 6:9,10; Ezra 7:12, 21,23; Neh.1:4,5; Neh.2:4,20; Psa.136:26; Dan.2:18,19,37,44; Jonah 1:9; Rev.11:13; Rev.16:11).

Bye for now.
Love, in Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #443 on: September 03, 2016, 02:50:42 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your replies all very good and a great help to many i'm sure jest had another thought on the two witnesses

They may be Israel and Christendom although Israel is rejected (dead)  as Able still speaks so dose Israel.

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Then after 3 1/2 days they came alive and ascended into heaven could this be 1000 year days and could this be the rapture as Paul tells us there will be a falling away in the last days.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Christendom  and Israel will be dead in the sense no one will be listening the same as to time of Noah People will be eating drinking and having a good time then the end will come.
Jest my thoughts for today.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #444 on: September 03, 2016, 03:48:20 PM »
... ... jest had another thought on the two witnesses

They may be Israel and Christendom although Israel is rejected (dead)  as Able still speaks so dose Israel.

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Then after 3 1/2 days they came alive and ascended into heaven could this be 1000 year days and could this be the rapture as Paul tells us there will be a falling away in the last days.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Christendom  and Israel will be dead in the sense no one will be listening the same as to time of Noah People will be eating drinking and having a good time then the end will come.
Jest my thoughts for today.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi @davetaff,

I don't believe that the two witnesses can be anything but individuals, chosen and equipped with power from on high, to accomplish this task.  For the detail concerning their 'dead bodies' (or corpses) being left in the street, unburied, indicate that these are human beings.  Not corporate entities like 'Christendom' and 'Israel'.

I also believe that the 3 1/2 days are precisely that, days, and not their equivalent in years.  For those watching, see them die, and see them rise up, stand upon their feet and ascend up into heaven in a cloud. (Rev. 11:11,12), 'their enemies beheld them'.  This is John's witness statement too, isn't it? He is recording it as it happens.

No, there is too much detail there to allegorize it in that way, I'm afraid, Dave.  It has to be taken literally.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #445 on: September 05, 2016, 08:22:18 AM »
'And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.'

(Rev 11:12b) 
'And when He had spoken these things,
while they beheld,
He was taken up;
and a cloud received Him
out of their sight.'

(Act 1:9) 

Hello there,

At the word of God the earth and the heaven's came into being.  Here, at the word of God, 'Come up hither', the same power which make the universe, and raised our Lord from the dead, takes the two witnesses up into heaven, before the eyes of their enemies. Praise God!

Their enemies had power to kill the body, but not to kill the soul of these two men (Matt.10:28).  For they as 'living souls' rise up to the Father.  Their life spirit entered into them, they stood upon their feet, and by the power of God ascended up into heaven. Praise God! Not as ethereal spirits, but flesh and bones, energized by life spirit.

Our resurrection will be like that too, won't it?  We will be raised to life, with resurrection bodies, like that of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Who was also not a spirit, but had substance in the form of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), which could be touched, which could speak, breath in and out and eat and drink.  Praise God!

However, The Church shall have ascended long before these judgment scenes commence.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad






Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #446 on: September 05, 2016, 09:01:50 AM »
'After this I looked, and, behold,
a door was opened in heaven:
and the first voice which I heard
was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
which said, "Come up hither,"
and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

(Rev.4:1) 

'And they heard a great voice from heaven
saying unto them, "Come up hither".
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.'

(Rev.11:12) 

Hello again,

Twice the words, 'Come up hither', are spoken.  First to John to witness the things that were to come.  Then to the two witnesses, who having been raised to life, were now by God's ascension power, raised up to heaven itself.

* John rose, 'in spirit', only, not bodily like the two witnesses, for what he saw he saw in vision.

'And immediately I was in the spirit:
and, behold, a throne was set in heaven,
and one sat on the throne.
And He that sat
was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone:
and there was a rainbow round about the throne,
in sight like unto an emerald.'

(Rev 4:2)   

* What a beautiful, yet awesome sight to behold!

* Paul also spoke of the visions he had witnessed, in 2 Corinthians 12:-

'It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory.
I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man,
(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
How that he was caught up into paradise,
and heard unspeakable words,
which it is not lawful for a man to utter. '

(2Cor. 12:1-4)

* Paul spoke of these things reluctantly, but it was made necessary because of false apostles, who claimed to have had visions, and to perform the works of an apostle, and were deceiving the people of Corinth. He was having to defend his Apostleship.  He speaks of himself in the third person, not directly, for fear of boasting, just as John himself did in the gospel of John, when he referred to himself as, 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'.  Paul was attempting to show that his experiences of divine visions were far superior to any his opponents could claim to have had.  Abraham and those who followed in his steps of overcoming faith, saw the vision of the heavenly Jerusalem too (Heb. 11:8-10; 13-16), so Paul and John were in good company, weren't they?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad






 
 

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #447 on: September 05, 2016, 11:44:43 AM »
Hi Caraid
Thanks for your reply jest wondering where to go from here  it may be a tangent we can't get back from the thread was started by Serenity maybe we should stick to revelations.

Jest a few things to clarify where I'm coming from you said.
Quote
--- ---


I  believe the Lords day is the last day of this creation which started with Noah it will last 7000 years we have jest entered the 6th day in which man in Gods image is created Christ and his church united in one.
To follow that is the 7th day God the fathers rest day when he leaves everything in the hands of his son Jesus Christ knowing everything will be done according to his will this is the day of the Lord.
 
I don't believe the Genesis account is  something that happened thousands of years ago and has no relevance today on the contrary I believe its one of the greatest prophecies given to mankind.

Love and Peace
Dave
 

Hello there, @davetaff,
 
I have never looked into this, so was at a loss to confirm it.  However, praise God! I have on my shelves, a book which has helped me to confirm this to my satisfaction, under the heading, 'The Day of the Lord, and God's Day'.

That the six days creation and the seventh day of rest is a pattern of prophetic events I had seen and acknowledged, but had never explored, now I will do so.

------------------------

'The day of the Lord' ends with the passing away of the heavens, and 'The Day of God' follows.(2 Peter 3:10,11)

' ... But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which (or, 'by reason of which')
the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,'

(2 Peter 3:10,11)

It seems that 'the day of the Lord' covers the book of Revelation until the end of the Millennium, when the dissolution takes place and 'the day of God' begins.

'The Day of God' - is covered by Rev. 20:11-15, and emerges into the new heavens and the new earth of Rev.21:1-6.

----------------------------

So, Thank you Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

:)