Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18472 times)

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Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #424 on: August 24, 2016, 07:56:44 PM »
... ... In another passage our  Lord likens candlesticks to the churches.

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

as I understand it the word church means called out we know Israel was called out "out of Egypt I called my son" this also applies to Christ so are the two witnesses Israel and the church the body of Christ.

Hi @davetaff,

God gives us his explanation of the vision John saw in Rev.1:12-16, in Revelation 1:20, doesn't He?  He says, ' ...  and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are (or represent) the seven churches.'  This cannot be disputed.

However these 'churches' or 'assemblies' will exist in 'the day of the Lord', or, 'the Lord's day', which is the setting for the visions of the book of Revelation.  They are not the Church which is His (Christ's) Body, of Ephesians, but the assemblies of believers in that day of great trial, which is yet to come.  Like the Two Witnesses, these assemblies are witnesses in that corrupt day. As we see from Rev.1:12-16, in their midst stands 'The Son of Man', and watching over them are angels, who are held responsible for their charges.

Praise God!

Quote
davetaff: As for the olive trees Paul makes reference to these in Romans.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So if Israel is a good olive tree a planting of the lord the gentile church has been a wild olive tree but both are olive trees both are witnesses for God.

*In Rom.11:24, Israel is spoken of as an Olive Tree, yes, and those who were received into the kingdom by faith in Christ Jesus, during the Acts period, were as a wild olive tree, grafted in to the Olive tree of Israel.  This grafting process was done to an olive tree to encourage growth, and bring new life to a failing olive tree.  Israel as a nation was failing. The grafted in branches were intended to bring new life to the tree, by stirring up Israel by jealousy to emulate those gentile believers, who had been received into the kingdom, by faith.  This did not happen, and after forty years of waiting for Israel to repent and receive Christ as their Messiah, the curse descended upon them, which Paul warned them of in Acts 13:40.  They went away into blindness and unbelief (Acts 28:23-31).  This condition is temporary, but it still remains to this day. The olive tree is cut down, and in abeyance, along with it's blessings which, being part of the new covenant, yet have to be experienced by them (for the roots remain).(Isaiah 37:31)

In the Church which is the Body of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, but a joint Body, of unity in Christ Jesus.  Not two companies but one united and equal assembly.  Israel as a nation is still Lo'ammi (not my people).

* The Two Witnesses are two individuals who will be empowered and enabled by God in that day.

Quote
davetaff: When God says to them come up here I believe this will be the rapture.

* Are you referring to Rev.11:12, Dave?

'And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
"Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.'


* Why do you believe that this is the resurrection spoken of in 2 Thessalonians?

Quote
davetaff: I believe "the God of the earth"and "the Lord of all the earth" are one and the same it can only be Christ after all everything was created by him and through him.

God, is one God, isn't He? Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  He has different titles which are used at different times, and for different purposes. This, 'The God of the Earth', and 'The Lord of all the earth,' is just one of those Titles, which happens to have particular reference to the earth.

Thank you @davetaff.
Please don't be offended by me.
With love in Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #425 on: August 25, 2016, 09:34:36 AM »
Re: 'Abomination of desolation'  (Matt. 24:14, Mark 13:14; Dan 9:27; Dan. 12:11)

'Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that
he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.'

(2 Thess 2:3,4)

* This is abominable, but is it, 'the abomination of desolation'?
It appears so, doesn't it?

* This occurs immediately prior to the events that take place when our Lord appears in the air, when the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain, rise to meet Him. (1 Thess. 4:15-17)

:)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #426 on: August 25, 2016, 03:51:59 PM »
Hi Cariad
Great post where to start you said

Quote
In the Church which is the Body of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, but a joint Body, of unity in Christ Jesus.  Not two companies but one united and equal assembly.  Israel as a nation is still Lo'ammi (not my people).
   

I agree with this and a lot of what you say thanks.
You say much of revelations are future event but if we read the first verse of revelations it says.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Shortly come to pass would seam to indicate  that they would begin shortly after John penned them so not 2016 years later although I believe there are things still future and of course on Gods time table 2016 years could be jest over two days.

Then there is the seven churches every time I see the number 7 I think of the seven days of creation sorry can't help it I believe a new creation started with Christ it will take 3000 years to complete because the days have bean cut short.
So I believe the seven churches are seven groups whom our Lord has called out during that time period to put his message back on track who they are I don't know God knows.

As for the two witnesses I still think they are Israel and Christ even if Israel has bean rejected (dead) he still speaks as Able dose

 Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Then you asked this

 
Quote
Re: 'Abomination of desolation'  (Matt. 24:14, Mark 13:14; Dan 9:27; Dan. 12:11)

'Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.'
(2 Thess 2:3,4)

* This is abominable, but is it, 'the abomination of desolation'?
It appears so, doesn't it?

* This occurs immediately prior to the events that take place when our Lord appears in the air, when the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain, rise to meet Him. (1 Thess. 4:15-17   

I can agree with this jest wondering Is the temple of God mentioned here the body of believers or the temple in Jerusalem or both may be.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #427 on: August 26, 2016, 09:22:57 AM »
Quote
davetaffs:
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Shortly come to pass would seam to indicate  that they would begin shortly after John penned them so not 2016 years later although I believe there are things still future and of course on Gods time table 2016 years could be jest over two days.

Then there is the seven churches every time I see the number 7 I think of the seven days of creation sorry can't help it I believe a new creation started with Christ it will take 3000 years to complete because the days have bean cut short.
So I believe the seven churches are seven groups whom our Lord has called out during that time period to put his message back on track who they are I don't know God knows.

'The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified
it by his angel unto his servant John:'

(Rev 1:1) 

Hi @davetaff,

As you will know, throughout the Acts period, and the epistles written during that time, the Lord's return was spoken of as imminent.  Believers looked eagerly for the coming of the Lord.  But it all hung on the repentance of Israel.  Opportunity was given during the approx. 40 year period covered by the book of Acts, but in Acts 28:25-27, with the repetition once again of the reference to Isaiah 7:9,10, Israel went off into blindness and unbelief, and the prophetic clock stopped ticking. 

* This is only a temporary condition, God's purpose for Israel will yet be fulfilled, but now God is calling out the members of the Body of Christ.  When Christ returns and Israel repents and takes up the task allotted to it, as priests unto God, then the prophetic clock begins to tick again, and the events of Revelation take place.

* God, through the person of 'The Lord's Prisoner', Paul: proclaimed the new administration for the intervening years, in the creation of the Church which is His Body.  This took place while Paul was in prison following Acts 28.  His epistles written from prison, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, contain the fellowship (dispensation) of this mystery (secret) which had been 'hid in God' until that moment.

'That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs,
and of the same body,
and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister,

according to the gift of the grace of God
given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints,
is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles
the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see
what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world
hath been hid in God
,
Who created all things by Jesus Christ: ...'

(Eph 3:6-9) 

Praise God!  For His provision.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

PS.  Isaiah 7:9,10 is quoted 7 times in the New Testament,
3 of those times were times of great dispensational crises.
Matt.13:14; John 12:40,41 and Acts 28:25-27

PPS.  God, in His foreknowledge knew that Israel would not repent, yet opportunity had to be given.  So the revelation of the truth of 'The Mystery' ((Ephesians 3) could not be revealed until Israel had failed to come to repentance and faith in their Messiah, Christ Jesus their now risen, Lord and Saviour.


Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #428 on: August 26, 2016, 11:02:18 AM »
'The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto Him,
to shew unto His servants
things which must shortly come to pass;
and He sent and signified it
by His angel
unto His servant John:
Who bare record
of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that He saw.'

(Rev 1:1,2)

Praise God!

The other point, @davetaff, is that this timescale is in 'the day of the Lord'.  The things being revealed to John were given to him as an observer of that day,  He was 'in the spirit' on 'the Lord's day' (Rev.1:10).  Seeing things that would 'shortly come to pass' within that timeframe. 

Just a thought.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #429 on: August 27, 2016, 02:34:33 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thank you for your replies excellent stuff and very beneficial to all who read them keep up the good work.

Thought we mite look at the day of the lord or the lords day when will it be and how long, has it already started.
As usual more question than answers but hopefully it will lead to a better understanding of God Word even if we don't unravel all the mysteries.

As you may have guessed I'm a great believer in the creation story so I believe the Lords day will be a thousand years long I have assumed it would be a time of peace when Christ would reign with his church over the whole earth.
This would be God's Sabbath rest.
It dose not really fit in with what John has to tell us this sounds a far more turbulent period so I'm wondering is it the day before the seventh day when man in Gods image is created and finished when Christ and his Bride are joined together and become one the crowning glory of Gods creation.

I believe there is a physical creation and a spiritual creation and we are coming towards the end of the spiritual  thank God.
remember there can only be one man in Gods image and that's Jesus Christ Creation still awaits its completion.

Love and Peace
Dave 
   

Cariad

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #430 on: August 31, 2016, 01:12:24 PM »

Thought we mite look at the day of the lord or the lords day when will it be and how long, has it already started.
As usual more question than answers but hopefully it will lead to a better understanding of God Word even if we don't unravel all the mysteries.

As you may have guessed I'm a great believer in the creation story so I believe the Lords day will be a thousand years long I have assumed it would be a time of peace when Christ would reign with his church over the whole earth.
This would be God's Sabbath rest.
It dose not really fit in with what John has to tell us this sounds a far more turbulent period so I'm wondering is it the day before the seventh day when man in Gods image is created and finished when Christ and his Bride are joined together and become one the crowning glory of Gods creation.

I believe there is a physical creation and a spiritual creation and we are coming towards the end of the spiritual  thank God.
remember there can only be one man in Gods image and that's Jesus Christ Creation still awaits its completion.

Hi @davetaff,

You believe that the events of creation are a pattern of what is yet to come, yes?

* You believe :-
- that it will last for 1000 years.
- it will be a time of peace.
- that Christ will reign during this time.
- that Christ's Church will reign during this time with Him.
- that His reign will be over the whole earth
- that this will be God's Sabbath rest

* You say that this does not really fit in with what John is telling us, because:-
- it sounds a much more turbulent period.
- you suggest that John's account is therefore represented by the 6th day of creation.
- and suggest it finishes when Christ and His Bride are united.

Quote
davetaff:
I believe there is a physical creation and a spiritual creation and we are coming towards the end of the spiritual  thank God.
remember there can only be one man in Gods image and that's Jesus Christ Creation still awaits its completion.

I'm afraid I don't understand this, Dave.

In Christ Jesus.
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #431 on: August 31, 2016, 04:36:56 PM »
Hi Caraid
Thanks for your reply jest wondering where to go from here  it may be a tangent we can't get back from the thread was started by Serenity maybe we should stick to revelations.

Jest a few things to clarify where I'm coming from you said.

Quote
Hi @davetaff,

You believe that the events of creation are a pattern of what is yet to come, yes?

* You believe :-
- that it will last for 1000 years.
- it will be a time of peace.
- that Christ will reign during this time.
- that Christ?s Church will reign during this time with Him.
- that His reign will be over the whole earth
- that this will be God?s Sabbath rest

* You say that this does not really fit in with what John is telling us, because:-
- it sounds a much more turbulent period.
- you suggest that John?s account is therefore represented by the 6th day of creation.
- and suggest it finishes when Christ and His Bride are united.
 

I  believe the Lords day is the last day of this creation which started with Noah it will last 7000 years we have jest entered the 6th day in which man in Gods image is created Christ and his church united in one.
To follow that is the 7th day God the fathers rest day when he leaves everything in the hands of his son Jesus Christ knowing everything will be done according to his will this is the day of the Lord.
 
I don't believe the Genesis account is  something that happened thousands of years ago and has no relevance today on the contrary I believe its one of the greatest prophecies given to mankind.

Love and Peace
Dave