Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18433 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #384 on: July 14, 2016, 07:05:16 PM »
Hi John
God has always had a remnant to further his plan of salvation but it dose not mean his plan is only to save a remnant who do you think all these are

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

A grey multitude to many to count not exactly a remnant.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #385 on: July 15, 2016, 10:12:53 AM »
Dave,
          A great many people from every tribe, nation and tongue who have been saved are those in that great multitude.
What you won't accept is the repeated pattern of gods actions seen in the OT, repeated in the NT where some people are chosen and others are rejected. 
that is the lesson of the remnant.
What happens to those to whom Jesus will say depart from me I never knew you?
What happened to the entire population of the earth that was destroyed by the flood? Were they saved by God?

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #386 on: July 15, 2016, 01:28:38 PM »
Dave,
          A great many people from every tribe, nation and tongue who have been saved are those in that great multitude.
What you won't accept is the repeated pattern of gods actions seen in the OT, repeated in the NT where some people are chosen and others are rejected. 
that is the lesson of the remnant.
What happens to those to whom Jesus will say depart from me I never knew you?
What happened to the entire population of the earth that was destroyed by the flood? Were they saved by God?

Hi john
All those who died in the flood were saved they were saved for the resarection  never forget everyone that God  puts to sleep he will raise up again why do you think that is just to throw them into the lake of fire bon't make much sence.

I believe all the instances of of things like the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah and the like was God telling us what our sins deserve.

Never forgetting all those who have fallen asleep will be raised up we have to ask the question why.
The next question is what is the lake of fire ( is it Gods big barbeque) I don't think so.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #387 on: July 15, 2016, 03:04:40 PM »
Dave,
         If you think that everyone will be saved you believe something that is not taught in the bible.
Jesus himself taught that those who did not believe were condemned because of their lack of believe john 3 v 18-20.
Matt 25 v46 at the end of the parabel of the sheep and the goats. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.?
As this is suposed to be on revelation there is Rev. 14:9-11
"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.  11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."? 
and
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

We've been over this before, God is not just Love. He is far, far more than that.          To major on God's love and to ignore his Holiness and his Justice results in the false idea of God that you have.
Please don't get me wrong Hell is a horrible idea, but so is the idea of man in deviant rebellion and rejection against God. Remember it took God's own sacrifice to reconcile us to God, atheists are quite rightly horrified by the crucifiction and they have no idea of its true horror. Jesus died to pay for our sin, guilt, shame etc He took the separation from God that is rightly and justly ours.

All who do not accept Jesus as their saviour have earned themselfs punishment. Earnt by their Godless life and earnt by their refusal to accept the offer of salvation.

Do you realy believe that someone who hates God actualy wants to be forced to be in heaven with God. Ever talked to an atheist about that?
They would regard it as a cruel and unusual punishment, in their eyes it is worse than hell.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #388 on: July 15, 2016, 04:22:35 PM »
Hi John
I am not saying everyone will be saved but I am saying everyone will have the opportunity to be saved we need to remember not everyone has heard  the gospel  and as you say we have a just God then its only fair that everyone has the choice to hear it and be saved but the choice to accept or reject Christ is up to every individual a free will choice there will be those who will reject the offer and I think this verse covers it.

Rev 22:15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

they will be refused entry into the Kingdom what will happen to them I don't know.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #389 on: July 15, 2016, 05:44:34 PM »
Dave,
 Romans 1 v 18-20 says'18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.'
God says the non Christian is already without excuse, in the here and now whether they have heard of Jesus or not.

You say you don't know what happens to those who reject God. Revelation and Jesus's teaching, sadly, is very clear. They are excluded from the presence of God, from the source of All that is good and are left with everything that is excluded from Gods presence.

Hell is terrible because there is no sence of the presence of God, no Love, kindness, gentleness, laughter, joy, peace etc etc.

For me Hebrews 9 v 27 teaches that our state is fixed at death and that there are no 2nd chances.
Revelation 22 verse 15 makes very clear that the unsaved are outside, excluded, shut away from the presence of God, it does not say that they are given a 2nd chance.
The call to come is a message that John is given to make known, to preach to the living.

The Christian message is that NOW is the day of Salvation.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #390 on: July 15, 2016, 06:32:27 PM »
Hi John
I don't agree with you on your quote from romans this is telling us that there is a god who created everything but its only belief in Jesus Christ which saves us.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

 31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

How can one be saved if they have never heard of Jesus

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #391 on: July 15, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »
Dave,
         you can disagree with me all you like, it's what the forum is about. But you also have to face what the bible says.
Don't just read the verse read it in context. What does it teach?

Yes we are saved through faith in Jesus and we are to evangelise, yet at the same time God is free to work among those who  are seeking him and who have not heard the gospel.

Do you believe that a sinner can turn round to God and be able to claim that God has been unjust in Gods treatment of that sinner?