Author Topic: OT saints were all born again  (Read 741 times)

Description: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, Elijah, were all led by the spirit of Christ!

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Offline francis drake

OT saints were all born again
« on: November 28, 2015, 07:14:10 PM »

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I have added this prefix to halt those who accuse me of denying the death of Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth.
So just to make it abundantly clear, without the death of Jesus, and his shed blood, nobody could ever be born again. Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world is the one and only salvation that has paid for the redemption of mankind.
My aim is to show that from Adam onwards, all those who put their trust in God were also redeemed by Jesus's blood.

I imagine we all agree that until a person is reborn, born again, or born from above spiritually, his human spirit remains dead and totally opposed to God and anything God might require of him. An unregenerate person cannot possibly have anything other than a carnal mind. His carnal mind is his only source of direction and decision making.

Paul reinforces this in Romans.
Romans8v6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


However in several places we find the following typical sentiments regarding the patriarchs.
James2v23And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If they that are in the flesh are enemies and cannot please God, how could a spiritually dead Abraham please God enough to be called "the friend of God". If Abraham did not have a reborn spirit, then no matter how perfect his behaviour, he remained a carnally minded enemy, not a friend!

The only way Abraham could please God is if his human spirit experienced the new birth that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about. (And Jesus was speaking in the present tense, not of some future event after the crucifixion!)

Now if as scripture says, Abraham believed God, then it is inarguable that Abraham was being led by the Spirit of God.

Romans8v14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, ?Abba, Father.? 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God?s children.

If Abraham was being led by the spirit, then he was a child of God, a born again son of God. And that is the only way he could please God!

And if anyone doubts the activity of Jesus with Abraham.
John8v56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus dwells outside of time, that's why the new birth was available from Adam, on account, for those who put their trust in him as Abraham clearly did.


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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Offline Jesus4me

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2015, 08:51:20 PM »
I imagine we all agree that until a person is reborn, born again, or born from above spiritually, his human spirit remains dead and totally opposed to God and anything God might require of him. An unregenerate person cannot possibly have anything other than a carnal mind. His carnal mind is his only source of direction and decision making.

Paul reinforces this in Romans.
Romans8v6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


However in several places we find the following typical sentiments regarding the patriarchs.
James2v23And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If they that are in the flesh are enemies and cannot please God, how could a spiritually dead Abraham please God enough to be called "the friend of God". If Abraham did not have a reborn spirit, then no matter how perfect his behaviour, he remained a carnally minded enemy, not a friend!

The only way Abraham could please God is if his human spirit experienced the new birth that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about. (And Jesus was speaking in the present tense, not of some future event after the crucifixion!)

Now if as scripture says, Abraham believed God, then it is inarguable that Abraham was being led by the Spirit of God.

Romans8v14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, ?Abba, Father.? 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God?s children.

If Abraham was being led by the spirit, then he was a child of God, a born again son of God. And that is the only way he could please God!

And if anyone doubts the activity of Jesus with Abraham.
John8v56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus dwells outside of time, that's why the new birth was available from Adam, on account, for those who put their trust in him as Abraham clearly did.


Under the Old Covenant, only the Prophet Priest and King had the Holy Spirit come UPON them, where as in the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit is INSIDE the believers.
The new birth wasn't available until Jesus died and rose again.
If the people in the OT were born again, Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he needed to be born again??, Nicodemus was under the OT, and he was a Bible teacher.
The disciples of Jesus were followers of Jesus, but they weren't born again until some were in Jn 20: 22. If they were born again, Why would Jesus breath the Holy Spirit into them?.
Col 1: 18 and Rev 1: 5 say Jesus was the first to be born again, We know He wasn't the first to be raised from physical death
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Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2015, 09:01:27 PM »
And when you look in Luke's24:32 version of John 20...instead of the story of Jesus meeting the women, the story is Jesus walking along with 2 of the Disciples...which were in the room later with Jesus in John20:22.

Their hearts burned within them when Jesus spoke about the Scriptures to them.  This discernment, being something of the Holy Spirit, how was it there before Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto them later in the day, in the upper room?

Offline francis drake

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2015, 10:49:54 PM »

Under the Old Covenant, only the Prophet Priest and King had the Holy Spirit come UPON them, where as in the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit is INSIDE the believers.
That's not true J4M.-
Numbers11v25Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

But then I am not talking about prophets etc. I am talking about new birth of the human spirit which is nothing to do with prophecy or doing miracles etc.

Quote
The new birth wasn't available until Jesus died and rose again.
This is just church tradition speaking. It is not born out by the facts.
Quote
If the people in the OT were born again, Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he needed to be born again??, Nicodemus was under the OT, and he was a Bible teacher
Exactly. Being a bible teacher doesn't mean a jot, especially if they are all puffed up with their own self importance. Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus shows just how remote theology can be from the simplest of obvious truths.

The Greek original for John3 shows that Jesus's comments on new birth were completely in the present tense, and not meant just for future consideration. This makes it obvious that new birth was the current state of all true believer at that very time Jesus.
Not only so, but Jesus fully expected Nicodemus to already be aware of such simplicities of spiritual life.

Rather than being supported, the idea that new birth could not occur till the resurrection is completely and utterly denied by John3!
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The disciples of Jesus were followers of Jesus, but they weren't born again until some were in Jn 20: 22.
Just where does it say the disciples were not born again? All you have done is apply traditional false teaching and weave it backwards into scripture.
All OT believers had eternal life, including the disciples, and that means they must each have been reborn at some point. If that were not true, then the following would have been impossible to say.-
John1v47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile!"
If Nathaniel could completely deal with his own imperfections, without new birth of the spirit, then why would he need the death of Jesus? To be without guile, and that without new birth, Nathaniel must have already mastered self perfection through self effort.
If you believe that's possible, then you are on the wrong forum! Lol

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If they were born again, Why would Jesus breath the Holy Spirit into them?.
You shouldn't need me to tell you this J4M.
This had nothing to do with being born again, it was simply breathing Holy Spirit power into them so they could do the miracles and healing that Jesus had been doing.
Quote
Col 1: 18 and Rev 1: 5 say Jesus was the first to be born again, We know He wasn't the first to be raised from physical death

Wrong J4M.
I have answered this ad nauseam on the other thread and am not going to discuss it here if you ignore it there. So go and read your own thread again please.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Browner

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2015, 11:08:44 PM »
FD, I iz getting to know who you are!
Aren't you aware that the OT says somewhere ...
God could never be satisfied with the shedding of the blood of animals.
I suppose you know what that means for the OT "saints"?
"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether
(slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, or
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
... so now present your members as
slaves of righteousness for (leading to) holiness." (Romans 6:16-19)

Offline francis drake

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2015, 11:53:39 PM »
FD, I iz getting to know who you are!

Haha, lets hope we can both learn and get blessed as iron sharpens iron then! And beware, Francis Drake is a privateer who has a price on his head and likes sinking ships.
Quote
Aren't you aware that the OT says somewhere ...
God could never be satisfied with the shedding of the blood of animals.
I suppose you know what that means for the OT "saints"?
Did you mean what the NT says?
Hebrews10v4It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

I used to think it meant the OT sacrifices were of no value, but that is not what it means at all. To understand this, it helps to look at what Paul says about the Lord's supper.
1Cor11v23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ?This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.? 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, ?This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.? 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord?s death until he comes.

The wine and the bread of communion are in themselves of absolutely no value whatsoever, and neither do the bread and wine take away sin!
However what the wine and bread represents is of awesome value and of limitless importance. That is why it says above that, "you proclaim the Lord's death!" And the Lord's death takes away the sin, and that's the only thing that counts.

These elements represent the broken body and the shed blood of Jesus.
But interestingly the blood of bulls and goats also represents the shed blood of Jesus!

So although the blood of bulls and goats don't actually take away sin, the payment is held on account till the actual death happened, and God passed over any judgement they deserved because of that pending blood sacrifice.

For something that doesn't take away sins, the OT blood poured out was awesome in its power!-
Exodus12v13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt..
As you can see, the blood shall be a token, a token looking forward. This is similar language as in 1Cor11, when it says that the wine and bread proclaims his death, ie, a token looking backwards.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Jesus4me

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 07:51:19 AM »
And when you look in Luke's24:32 version of John 20...instead of the story of Jesus meeting the women, the story is Jesus walking along with 2 of the Disciples...which were in the room later with Jesus in John20:22.

Their hearts burned within them when Jesus spoke about the Scriptures to them.  This discernment, being something of the Holy Spirit, how was it there before Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto them later in the day, in the upper room?


Luke didn't mention that Jesus breathed on them, Neither does Matthew or Mark. But The disciples [Who were there] were born again when Jesus breathed the Spirit into them, because in Jn 21: 15--17, Peter said he loved the Lord, he said it three times in two different Greek words,
One of those Greek words was, "Agape", [The love of God], He couldn't have had God's  agape love if he wasn't born again. Rom 5: 5.


As for, Quote, "how was it there before Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto them later in the day, in the upper room?", [End quote].
One doesn't need to be born again for the power or presence of Jesus to burn within their hearts.

About six months before I became a Christian, on a warm still sunny day the Lord appeared  to me, and as He did, the wind blew strongly and I felt just like Jesus,
[I don't know how I knew it was Jesus, but I just did]. So I said to Him, "Lord, I would love to be like you", He said, "You can", then left and the wind stopped.
Then when I got born again, I felt just like I did on that day, So I knew it was the Lord who appeared to me. BUT I WASN'T BORN AGAIN.
Teaching God's liberating truth

Offline Jesus4me

Re: OT saints were all born again
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 08:22:16 AM »
That's not true J4M.-
Numbers11v25Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

But then I am not talking about prophets etc. I am talking about new birth of the human spirit which is nothing to do with prophecy or doing miracles etc.
This is just church tradition speaking. It is not born out by the facts.Exactly. Being a bible teacher doesn't mean a jot, especially if they are all puffed up with their own self importance. Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus shows just how remote theology can be from the simplest of obvious truths.

The Greek original for John3 shows that Jesus's comments on new birth were completely in the present tense, and not meant just for future consideration. This makes it obvious that new birth was the current state of all true believer at that very time Jesus.
Not only so, but Jesus fully expected Nicodemus to already be aware of such simplicities of spiritual life.

Rather than being supported, the idea that new birth could not occur till the resurrection is completely and utterly denied by John3!Just where does it say the disciples were not born again? All you have done is apply traditional false teaching and weave it backwards into scripture.
All OT believers had eternal life, including the disciples, and that means they must each have been reborn at some point. If that were not true, then the following would have been impossible to say.-
John1v47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile!"
If Nathaniel could completely deal with his own imperfections, without new birth of the spirit, then why would he need the death of Jesus? To be without guile, and that without new birth, Nathaniel must have already mastered self perfection through self effort.
If you believe that's possible, then you are on the wrong forum! Lol
You shouldn't need me to tell you this J4M.
This had nothing to do with being born again, it was simply breathing Holy Spirit power into them so they could do the miracles and healing that Jesus had been doing.
Wrong J4M.
I have answered this ad nauseam on the other thread and am not going to discuss it here if you ignore it there. So go and read your own thread again please.


Other people in the OT had the Spirit come on then for a special purpose, but that was rare.
You won't find anyone in the OT who was born again, to say they were is unscriptural.    Jesus was the first to be born again.

The "Except a man be born again", Jn 3: 3. IS NOT, Present tense. it's future tense,  an action that takes place when one receives Jesus.
Why would Jesus tell a person [Nicodemus], that he needs to be born again, If the OT people were born again??.

The disciples weren't born again until Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into them. Jn 20: 22.  This WASN'T the power to do miracles, Because in Acts 1: 8
Jesus said they would receive power when they are baptised in the Holy Ghost, See Acts 1: 4--5, & 8.

Nathaniel having no "Guile", does not mean he was saved, or there was no sin in him, "Guile" means "Deceit, trick, bait or craft", And that DOESN'T mean he was born again.

Again you have given NO scripture proof that the OT people were born again.
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