Author Topic: Faith  (Read 3138 times)

Description: What it doesn't do, and what it does do.

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Offline Jesus4me

Re: Faith
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2015, 05:05:44 PM »

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The "Spirit" in 1 Thess 5: 23, Is the human spirit, Not the Spirit of Christ. You have even quoted scriptures that prove it.
When one is born again, Jn 3: 3--8. Eph 2: 1, &v5, Their spirits are alive to God and the things of God, where they were dead to God before, Eph 2: 1, &5, & v12.
Some of the disciples were born again in Jn 20: 22, So they were born of the Spirit of God, [First God given Spirit experience], Then they received the second Spirit experience, The baptism in the Holy Ghost, Acts 1: 4--5 & 8,  Acts 2: 1--4.
The disciples in Acts 8: 14, were born again of the Spirit of God,[The first Spiritual experience], Then they had the second spirit experience in v17, they were baptised in the Holy Ghost.
Paul was saved, [Born again, the first spiritual experience, Acts 9: 6, then he had the second spiritual experience, v17.
The disciples in Acts 19: 2--6, already had the first spiritual experience, then they had the second, in v6.

One spirit, but two different experiences, And that's how it was with Jesus, He was born of the Holy Spirit, Matt 1: 18 21. Lk 1: 35, Then He was baptised in the Holy Spirit, Jn 1: 32--33.
Please note, Jesus was the son of God Lk 1: 35., But He did no miracle until He was baptised in the Holy Ghost, Jn 1: 32--33, Jn 2: 1--11.
One Spirit, two experiences.

You said you believe the Bible, and you said you have search for spiritual death but couldn't find it in scripture, Then you either don't know the Bible, or you don't believe it.
Eph 2: 1, "You have He quickened, [Made alive spiritually], WHO WERE DEAD in sins".
V5"Even when you were DEAD, [Spiritually] in your sins, have quickened, [Made alive in  their spirits]
V12, "Without God",
Spiritual death is separation from God,  Eph 2: 1, & 5, & 12, tells us that we were spiritually dead and without God.
Jesus was without God when He said, Why has thou forsaken me, [Spiritual death].

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Re: Faith
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2015, 05:09:09 PM »
Why do you ask for scriptures, when scriptures have been provided and ignored?

This thread is so far from its original, and got to the point of repetitive circular unreasonable reasoning to the point of accusations backwards and forwards, I don't see the fruit in it, other than bolstering arrogance and ego.
People don't need dictating to.  People also shouldn't do the dictating. 
You are not to tell other people whether they are Christian or not, or whether they believe the Bible or not, based on your own understanding of the Bible which in itself could be erroneous.

Either change attitudes and approach, or risk it being locked, one warning previously is enough.  This IS the final warning in this thread.
Your choices to make, I suggest you all use a bit of wisdom.





Offline davetaff

Re: Faith
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2015, 05:30:42 PM »
Hi J4me
I still maintain that man was not created with a spirit as I think this verse proves.

 Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no mention of any spirit if there was don't  you think god would have made provision for it after all spirits are immortal he could not let them wonder about.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline Jesus4me

Re: Faith
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2015, 06:16:35 PM »
Hi J4me
I still maintain that man was not created with a spirit as I think this verse proves.

 Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no mention of any spirit if there was don't  you think god would have made provision for it after all spirits are immortal he could not let them wonder about.

Love and Peace
Dave


You have overlooked, Gen 2: 7, God breathed life into mankind, Ps 146: 4, Breath in the Hebrew is, Spirit, God breaths spirit into everyone who is born.
Matt 26: 41, "The Spirit is willing". 1 Thess 5: 23, Spirit, soul and body.  Heb  4: 12, Spirit and soul.
Mankind is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body.
Teaching God's liberating truth

Offline francis drake

Re: Faith
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2015, 09:42:17 PM »

I have shown you what the Bible, Hebrew and Greek say about the Spiritual death and resurrection of Jesus, But all you have given, is your own opinions with no scriptures to back them up.
Record got stuck in the groove again, someone give it a belt, or better still pull the plug!
Quote
So please give me scriptures that say Jesus didn't die Spiritually, and was born again.

Jesus didn't say He would be in paradise that same day, As "Paradise" is only mentioned three time in the New Testament, and it means "HEAVEN".
The malefactor didn't go to heaven that day, as heaven wasn't opened until three day later, [After the resurrection of Jesus].
This is the way it reads,
"I'm telling you today, that you will be with Me in paradise", [after My resurrection].
Again you manipulate the words to suit what's going around and around in your head.
As a supposed theology expert, you should know that punctuation in the Greek was not invented till several centuries after Christ. But of course don't let that stop your fun!
So again, here is the Strong's concordance version with no punctuation in the sequence it was written.
"And he said to him truly to you I say today with me you will be in Paradise."
If it merely means that Jesus was speaking to the thief on that day, the word "today" is utterly superfluous to the statement. Simple linguistic logic means that the word today describes the timing of the promised event, not the timing of the statement!

But as always, you elevate the J4M translation of scripture above all others.
Amusingly, I have just checked 23 different bible translations of that verse. All 23 translate it the way I have done.
You just lost the vote J4M!
Jesus went to paradise that day and took the thief with him exactly as he promised!
Quote
We know Jesus went to preach the gospel to those in Abraham's bosom, after He was made alive in His Spirit, So how could Jesus be in paradise, [Heaven] that day??.
Instead of waffling on, its time you gave us some actual scripture J4M, to back your Abraham's bosom theology.
Quote
Jesus DID NOT commit His Spirit to God, He commended it, [Entrusted that God would raise it up again]
Jesus DID NOT expect His Spirit to go straight to God, [That is only your wrong opinion].
You twist the scriptures to build your erroneous beliefs.
Cracked record still stuck in groove J4M, doesn't it bore you? Lol!
It doesn't make one iota if difference to the meaning whether the word is commit or commend. I just don't care because the meaning of the verse comes out exactly the same to any normal person!
If you unplug that record, you might be able to go back and read my previous answers to this from the Greek.
Quote
How do you answer this question,
If Jesus didn't die Spiritually, Why was he the first to be born again, Col 1: 18. and why was His Spirit made alive, [Born again], 1 Pet 3: 18"??.
And I want scriptures, not your own opinions.
You've already got the scripture right in front of you if you didn't do your usual mangling job. The Greek makes it abundantly clear that Col1v18 does not say Jesus was the first to be born again.

Col1v18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (proteuon).

The word firstborn does not in any way refer to Jesus being the first person to be born again.
The Greek word prototokos a single word not two, simply refers to the status Jesus had as God's firstborn son. It simply means that he is the first, the preeminent one above all others who follow later.
Jesus was already God's firstborn son long before the crucifixion or the resurrection.
Col1v15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

As God's firstborn, Jesus, the Logos, created all things. And take note that he was God's firstborn before he came to earth as flesh and blood!
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
As the firstborn son he is always the preeminent one.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

At all and every point of physical life, physical death and life again, Jesus was alive unto God. His spirit was never cut off from God, nor did he get spiritually reborn at any time.

Just how could God be spiritually dead to God, when they are one God?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Faith
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2015, 12:58:39 PM »

I have shown you what the Bible, Hebrew and Greek say about the Spiritual death and resurrection of Jesus, But all you have given, is your own opinions with no scriptures to back them up.
So please give me scriptures that say Jesus didn't die Spiritually, and was born again.
Actually, I don't have to prove that Jesus didn't die spiritually, and was born again, any more than I expect you to prove Jesus wasn't the spaghetti monster!
However, so other members can see the fallacy of your theology I present these.-
The following list of scripture verses is taken from a single continuous discourse of Jesus during the last supper. In it you will see his repeated statements that he is just about to go to his Father in Heaven. Even if you include all the verses I have omitted, there is still not one single comment made during that evening that might even hint he was going en route via hell, nor any indication whatsoever of his so called spiritual death! The very opposite in fact.

John13v1It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father.

John13v3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John14v12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

John14v28?You heard me say, ?I am going away and I am coming back to you.? If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John16v5but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ?Where are you going??

John16v10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

John16v28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.?
Look at that, "Now I am leaving the world and going back to my Father!" Note, it is now, and he is going nowhere else!

John16v 32?A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
Take note, this one verse utterly denies all possibility that Jesus would be cut off from his Father!

John17v 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John17v11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power ofb your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John17v13?I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.


J4M, if you insist on sticking to your guns that Jesus went to hell, and that he died spiritually, you are gonna have to explain away all the above verses!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Jesus4me

Re: Faith
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2015, 01:32:58 PM »
Record got stuck in the groove again, someone give it a belt, or better still pull the plug!Again you manipulate the words to suit what's going around and around in your head.
As a supposed theology expert, you should know that punctuation in the Greek was not invented till several centuries after Christ. But of course don't let that stop your fun!
So again, here is the Strong's concordance version with no punctuation in the sequence it was written.
"And he said to him truly to you I say today with me you will be in Paradise."
If it merely means that Jesus was speaking to the thief on that day, the word "today" is utterly superfluous to the statement. Simple linguistic logic means that the word today describes the timing of the promised event, not the timing of the statement!

But as always, you elevate the J4M translation of scripture above all others.
Amusingly, I have just checked 23 different bible translations of that verse. All 23 translate it the way I have done.
You just lost the vote J4M!
Jesus went to paradise that day and took the thief with him exactly as he promised!Instead of waffling on, its time you gave us some actual scripture J4M, to back your Abraham's bosom theology.Cracked record still stuck in groove J4M, doesn't it bore you? Lol!
It doesn't make one iota if difference to the meaning whether the word is commit or commend. I just don't care because the meaning of the verse comes out exactly the same to any normal person!
If you unplug that record, you might be able to go back and read my previous answers to this from the Greek.You've already got the scripture right in front of you if you didn't do your usual mangling job. The Greek makes it abundantly clear that Col1v18 does not say Jesus was the first to be born again.

Col1v18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (proteuon).

The word firstborn does not in any way refer to Jesus being the first person to be born again.
The Greek word prototokos a single word not two, simply refers to the status Jesus had as God's firstborn son. It simply means that he is the first, the preeminent one above all others who follow later.
Jesus was already God's firstborn son long before the crucifixion or the resurrection.
Col1v15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

As God's firstborn, Jesus, the Logos, created all things. And take note that he was God's firstborn before he came to earth as flesh and blood!
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.
As the firstborn son he is always the preeminent one.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

At all and every point of physical life, physical death and life again, Jesus was alive unto God. His spirit was never cut off from God, nor did he get spiritually reborn at any time.

Just how could God be spiritually dead to God, when they are one God?




The man on the cross DID NOT go to heaven that day, because heaven wasn't opened until Jesus rose from the dead. So bang goes you theory.
I have explained to true meaning of, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise", And anyone who knows the Bible, will know that Jesus went to hell that day.
Rom !0: 7. and Eph 4: 9--10 says Jesus went into the lower parts of the earth, First  into hell, "Hades" Acts 2: 27. SEE Lk 16: 22--25,
Then when He was made alive in His spirit, He went to "Tartarus", the place of the fallen angels, to proclaim His victory,1 Pet 3: 18--19, 2 Pet 2: 4.
Then He went to preach the gospel to the OT saints in Abraham's bosom. 1 Pet 4: 6.

Please note, The rich man was in hell, "Hades", Lk 16: 22--25, and so was Jesus, Acts 2: 27. Where He suffered, Acts 2: 24,  God didn't loose Jesus from the pain of physical death, HE DIED. [On the cross, But God did loosed Jesus from the pains of hell.  THIS IS NOT GREEK MYTHOLOGY. It's a Biblical fact.
Acts 2: 27.  Then when Jesus was made alive in His Spirit, He went to "Tartarus" to proclaim His victory, Then He went into Abraham's bosom to preach the gospel to
the OT righteous, and that's when they got saved, [Born again], Then Jesus went up into the tomb to collect His body.
SO where is heaven in all this??.  "
Col 1: 18 and Rev 1: 5, DO say Jesus was the first to be born again.

You will have to admit that you have to twist the scriptures, Hebrew and Greek to build your erroneous doctrine.
Teaching God's liberating truth

Offline Jesus4me

Re: Faith
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2015, 01:54:01 PM »
Actually, I don't have to prove that Jesus didn't die spiritually, and was born again, any more than I expect you to prove Jesus wasn't the spaghetti monster!
However, so other members can see the fallacy of your theology I present these.-
The following list of scripture verses is taken from a single continuous discourse of Jesus during the last supper. In it you will see his repeated statements that he is just about to go to his Father in Heaven. Even if you include all the verses I have omitted, there is still not one single comment made during that evening that might even hint he was going en route via hell, nor any indication whatsoever of his so called spiritual death! The very opposite in fact.

John13v1It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father.

John13v3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John14v12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

John14v28?You heard me say, ?I am going away and I am coming back to you.? If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John16v5but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ?Where are you going??

John16v10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

John16v28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.?
Look at that, "Now I am leaving the world and going back to my Father!" Note, it is now, and he is going nowhere else!

John16v 32?A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
Take note, this one verse utterly denies all possibility that Jesus would be cut off from his Father!

John17v 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John17v11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power ofb your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John17v13?I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.


J4M, if you insist on sticking to your guns that Jesus went to hell, and that he died spiritually, you are gonna have to explain away all the above verses!



If you knew the Bible, you would know that God calls things that are not, as though they were, And Jesus was doing the same thing in those scriptures that you gave.
Jesus said Lazarus sickness was not unto death, Jn 11: 4, Yet Lazarus did die, Jesus was speaking the end result.
Jesus said to a woman who was bound for 18 years, "Thou art loosed", But she wasn't,  WAS SHE?.. No..No.. she was just as bound as ever, Jesus was calling her well BEFORE SHE WAS WELL.
Jesus told 10 lepers to go and show themselves to the Priest, [The Priest would certify them cleansed] So Jesus was calling them clean, But they weren't WERE THEY, No..No.  Not until the went.
In Jn 17: 4,  Jesus said He had finished the work, But He hadn't HAD HE?. No.

Anyone who knows the Bible, will know that Jesus DIDN'T GO to the Father, that day, never mind, "NOW", in Jn 13: 1. Jn 16: 5. Jn 17: 5.
And as for Jn 17: 11, Jesus is standing there on earth, and saying He is no more in this world.

So we can see that Jesus was calling things that will happen, After His death and resurrection.

Just use a bit of common sense, then I wouldn't have to explain these truths to you.
Teaching God's liberating truth

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