Poll

Do you believe in pre, post or mid tribulation rapture?

Pre trib.
3 (30%)
Mid trib.
0 (0%)
Post trib.
1 (10%)
Don't believe in the rapture.
3 (30%)
Not sure.
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: September 28, 2015, 09:56:38 PM

Author Topic: Tribulation.  (Read 1362 times)

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Offline Amadeus

Re: Tribulation.
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2016, 10:02:41 PM »

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@Amadeus my friend, what you are describing sounds like the Sudducees belief system?

There may be similarities, but I don't stand with anyone on this, but God. Where I am amiss from His stand on it, then it is me that is at fault as it is with anyone else whose vision is still be seen "through a glass darkly".
 
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Just because scripture tells us that God is spirit, and is invisible, men extrapolate that description and give him attributes that are completely erroneous.  Being spirit does not mean God is merely like gas or a vapour. Being invisible refers merely to the natural human eye.

I try not to extrapolate or describe beyond what I see in the scriptures, but I know that it is only through the "eyes to see" which come to us through the Holy Ghost that we are able to see correctly. The problem is that I like everyone else I know still too often quench the Spirit of God in me.

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Angels are also spirits yet have definite form, and have been encountered both visibly and invisibly since creation.

By definite form aren't you falling back on man's definition according to man's natural senses? With regard to angels, aren't some of them simply men who have been given a message from God to deliver to men? If they are men, it would unusual for a carnal man who has not lost his natural vision to be unable to see such an angel. Was not John the Baptist such a messenger (angel)?

All the word 'definite' means is something is defined. What you mean perhaps is material or solid according to what our natural sense are able to observe and measure. How accurate is the measurement of a naturally blind man likely to be unless he trusts the judgment of another person?

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The following interesting scripture shows both Jesus and the Father.-
Dan7v9 I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.

Here we see God sitting on a throne, he wears a garment, he has hair, hardly the description of a formless God. Clearly he has a somewhat manlike figure, and considering that we have been made in His image,  God possessing human form should not be surprising.

What is a "garment" to God?

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: " Eph 6:13-17

Remember the covering that God gave Adam and Eve to replace the fig leaves? Was not that covering the "garment", yet did it not represent something more than natural clothing?

Consider this verse:

"For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it." Isaiah 28:20

And these:

"And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments" Zech 3:4-5

What is "hair" to God but that which I believe translates as a proper covering for us?

Do we suppose that Paul was writing here strictly about the natural hair that any normal woman of flesh is able to grow on her natural head?

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." I Cor 11:15

Then must we not get into exactly what woman is and what she is not?

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God is not merely a shimmering spiritual nothingness as some seem to think. Jesus told the disciples that if they had seen him, they had seen the Father. Like Father, like Son, as the saying goes!

And is that not how we are also supposed to be... like Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

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And just to be crystal clear, the person on the throne is not Jesus as we shall soon see.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

(To understand v11&12, you need to read the preceding scriptures, not relevant to my purposes here)

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Suddenly we see Jesus enter the scene. Even though Jesus is like his father, Daniel sees a clear difference in form between the human Jesus and God the Father.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And just to make it clear that Jesus did not inherit his divinity at this juncture, I add the following verse.

 John17v5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

ie. Jesus was with the Father before creation.

Before most of creation, but what of these?

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Rev 3:14

"Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Prov 8:25


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Offline francis drake

Re: Tribulation.
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2016, 05:04:43 PM »

Before most of creation, but what of these?

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Rev 3:14
Those words simply mean that Jesus is the source from which creation began. ie. Jesus is not created, but the creator of all things in heaven and on earth.
Thus that verse merely confirms, not disproves what I wrote.

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"Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Prov 8:25
Again, this the whole chapter is talking about "wisdom". Everything was created by wisdom which comes forth from God, which is obviously personified in Christ. Again it lends no support whatsoever that Jesus was created.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Amadeus

Re: Tribulation.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2016, 03:17:42 AM »
Those words simply mean that Jesus is the source from which creation began. ie. Jesus is not created, but the creator of all things in heaven and on earth.
Thus that verse merely confirms, not disproves what I wrote.
Again, this the whole chapter is talking about "wisdom". Everything was created by wisdom which comes forth from God, which is obviously personified in Christ. Again it lends no support whatsoever that Jesus was created.

I will not argue the point as only God gives any real increase to any us. Hopefully we are allowing Him increase both of us as move along His highway of holiness.

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