Author Topic: Spirit of God  (Read 1964 times)

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Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2016, 12:18:45 PM »
Hi francis,
              I hadn't seen your reply.
Moses wasn't creating but reorganising the people of Israel, yes he was unique just as any spiritual leader is in a time of revival or movement of God and just as moses's successors failed to be men of God and just as Eli's sons, Samuel's sons, and Solomons sons all failed to be men of God so leaders in the church are not always men of God or if men of God arn't able to step into the place left by more mature Christian leader.

By the way Francis, disagreeing about the nature of the church or how the church is organised or run or governed is scaresly preaching another gospel.

You say overseas don't or didn't run church worship. As there is very little in the NT on how church organised there worship that is a big claim and as Paul was calling for order in Corinthians it follows that an overser could have done the organising.
How does that work out in practice.

 Several Christians have a message, they arn't to just interupt someone else but to wait there turn, either because there is a pause and they can speak or because they have let the overser know they have a message and he has indicated it time for them to speak.

As you said the message is then evaluated and if neccessary application of the message considered.
This happens to all those with a message, unless of course they run out of time and have to end the meeting. I pity the overser as next time they meet those who didn't get to speak want to speak, but a known prophet also has a message and claims they have priority to speak before the others from last time. Does thios ever happen when you meet together Francis, how do you handle it?

You ask what I believe about the gifts of the spirit. They I believe are at Gods disposal to whom he decides to give them to and also to those who want and can or will use those gifts.
Speaking in tongues is not a mark of being a Christian any more than being a church member is.

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2016, 11:22:16 PM »
Moses wasn't creating but reorganising the people of Israel,
Moses most certainly was creating a "nation" in the normal comprehension of the word. ie. independent and self governing instead of a subservient slave community owned by another nation.
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yes he was unique just as any spiritual leader is in a time of revival or movement of God and just as moses's successors failed to be men of God and just as Eli's sons, Samuel's sons, and Solomons sons all failed to be men of God so leaders in the church are not always men of God or if men of God arn't able to step into the place left by more mature Christian leader.
Moses was not just their spiritual leader, but their political and military leader. That is why he was singular, as were the judges that God raised later on.
Pastoral leadership of the saints in the ekklesia has no connection with the leadership of a nation. The problem is that many pastors believe that is their role despite what Jesus taught to the contrary.
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By the way Francis, disagreeing about the nature of the church or how the church is organised or run or governed is scaresly preaching another gospel.
Read my context John. You were claiming Moses as a pattern. Moses brought the law, and preaching the law is what Paul called another Gospel.
It matters not whether it is the law of Moses, the law of the Baptist Union, the law of the Evangelical Alliance etc. its still another gospel.
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You say overseas don't or didn't run church worship. As there is very little in the NT on how church organised there worship that is a big claim and as Paul was calling for order in Corinthians it follows that an overser could have done the organising.
How does that work out in practice.
You are wrong on all counts John, and I note you again haven't addressed the previous post where Paul spoke clearly about the gathering of the ekklesia. But then for someone who rejects prophetic input, such language is probably alien to you.
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Several Christians have a message, they arn't to just interupt someone else but to wait there turn, either because there is a pause and they can speak or because they have let the overser know they have a message and he has indicated it time for them to speak.
There is absolutely no indication that an overseer has to be asked before anyone speaks. In fact Paul makes it clear that such an idea is repugnant because that puts one man as head over another.
1Cor11v3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,a and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.
Seeking permission from someone before praying or prophesying dishonours Christ!
Making a pastor the head of a body displaces Christ, and make no mistake, if you need to ask his permission, then he is your head.
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As you said the message is then evaluated and if neccessary application of the message considered.
Any evaluation is done by members of the body, not an overseer.
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This happens to all those with a message, unless of course they run out of time and have to end the meeting. I pity the overser as next time they meet those who didn't get to speak want to speak, but a known prophet also has a message and claims they have priority to speak before the others from last time. Does thios ever happen when you meet together Francis, how do you handle it?
Its called grace John, grace. Many times people don't get to contribute, but it isn't meant to be a competition. If we wish to hear what the Holy Spirit has to say then patience and love is necessary.
I recall a guest, who following an interesting conversation at the dinner table gave her heart to the Lord as the dish washer was being loaded! Minutes later she joined a meeting in our living room where we had gathered to pray for another of the guests.  Before we started praying I asked that we listen to what the Holy Spirit had to say. Almost immediately this lady spoke out a word she had heard in her spirit.
As acknowledged by the recipient, it was a razor sharp answer to where the problem lay and enabled us to pray rightly for him and do some deliverance.
That was her very first meeting and she hit the ground running with no bible training etc. She was as valuable as the next man, but perhaps had the advantage of having no church baggage to drag her down.
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You ask what I believe about the gifts of the spirit. They I believe are at Gods disposal to whom he decides to give them to and also to those who want and can or will use those gifts.
Speaking in tongues is not a mark of being a Christian any more than being a church member is.
Nobody would deny that. But speaking in tongues is available to all believers. Unfortunately, most christians exalt their intellect far above their spirit, thus their spirit remains permanently bound.

John, does your church meeting give freedom for the gifts of the spirit to be used?
When, how and what was the last time the gifts were used?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2016, 07:49:17 PM »
Grace is a good answer Francis, and is also the answer to your objections to a church.

Any group of 'Christians' who do not have grace are non functional, a graceless house group is as horrible as a graceless church.
It is grace that enables a minister to lead a church and to be a brother and fellow elder, just as it is grace that enables Christians to listen to God through others prayers, singing, speaking and preaching.

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2016, 09:28:06 PM »
Grace is a good answer Francis, and is also the answer to your objections to a church.

Any group of 'Christians' who do not have grace are non functional, a graceless house group is as horrible as a graceless church.
Most certainly
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It is grace that enables a minister to lead a church
Most ministers I have witnessed actually operate on a fake grace either all the time or most of the time. Their ministerial authority comes from the badge they wear not God's spirit. That's why they usually crush the operation of grace through the gifts, their very existence exposes his fake authority.
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and to be a brother and fellow elder, just as it is grace that enables Christians to listen to God through others prayers, singing, speaking and preaching.

John, do you want to answer my question about the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating in your church.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2016, 11:15:30 PM »
It all depends on what you understand by the gifts of the Spirit. If you mean speaking in tongues then no they aren't in evidence. If you mean people worshipping God and seeking to serve him, seeking to know his will in their lives then yes.

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2016, 08:50:39 PM »
It all depends on what you understand by the gifts of the Spirit. If you mean speaking in tongues then no they aren't in evidence. If you mean people worshipping God and seeking to serve him, seeking to know his will in their lives then yes.
But John, worshiping God and seeking to serve Him, are not describes in the bible as gifts of the Spirit.

The purpose of the gifts of the spirit is to enable the Lord to speak directly to His children. God has distributed those gifts throughout the body of Christ to ensure that the body functions collectively, instead of acting as an audience to what's going on at the front.
Any church that fails to acknowledge the need for the gifts is supplanting God's involvement with methodologies and service sheets.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2016, 10:04:44 PM »
Francis,
            read the lists of gifts again. What is teach, preaching, giving etc if not gifs that are used in worship.

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2016, 11:46:38 AM »
Francis,
            read the lists of gifts again. What is teach, preaching, giving etc if not gifs that are used in worship.
I've done that John, many times, have you?
1Cor12v7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit.
ie. not given to the leaders.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Oh dear, God is handing gifts everywhere, how can we control them......

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I know, if we teach them that these gifts ceased when the bible was completed, we can keep them all quietly in order.

11But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will.

There God goes again, confusing the simple people. Maybe if we tell them that putting the chairs out, reading the notices and making the teas and coffees are gifts, that'll keep them happy.

It is clear from every description given, that the gifts of the spirit are given to the body and not to a specially selected man or group standing at the front.
Nor is teaching or preaching said to be an act of worship, unless of course you mean the tendency of the sheeple in the pews to idolise their pastors.
Maybe John, you should read the lists of gifts and see how they are distributed to all the body, and not hijacked to serve a man made structure.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)