Author Topic: Spirit of God  (Read 1962 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2016, 12:12:03 PM »
Surely the celestial and Godly hierarchies are entirely different to other hierarchies.

Paul was a leader anointed by God, who wrote about the Body of Christ, that every true born again child of God has a part in.

The problem is that the religious hierarchies, are entirely different to the God led early church structure. The religious hierarchy does quench the Spirit of God.
Too many of these leaders of these hierarchies promote what they think and dont seek God, through their worldly lenses not seeing how God looks at the heart and not outward appearances. God works through humility and not arrogance and pomp.
Too many are prevented where the Spirit of God is not put first and the leaders put on a platform as demi gods , always the same people encouraged into missionary and ministry. Others discouraged and the Body of Christ disabled there, shooting their wounded.
It is frequently said that the church is the only army on earth that shoots its own wounded!
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Very much so and I agree very much with Francis. Only not completely,because I do believe even within those fallen structures God will work and there are anointings.
I have never denied that God can use these corrupt institutions called church. But just imagine how much more God could do if the hierarchies were cast down and the body of believers released to do what scripture calls them to do.
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Only God can work so much more and flourish when the Body of Christ is enabled, through humilty and would flourish.I see God working through His people in many settings that are not in a church structure and in every day life. Where they would be prevented through the church structure that does not operate as the Body of Christ. As said God does work on individuals within that structure but not as the visible church structure but through the invisible Body of Christ, dotted about on individuals within and outside of the visible structures.   Its my believe that God is breaking down those structures to take away the eyes from religious denominational thinking and not be caught up with that but with Him and so He can flourish through His Body of people. This forum is an example of a place where those barriers can be bro[/b]ken down. So thank you Guards. :D
Excellent Primrose.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2016, 12:13:26 PM »
The early Church stil had leaders though,

The only fault was in others parading them [as you say]

I repeat TJ. They were never leaders in the manner that you think.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2016, 01:09:29 PM »
It is 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?
I am utterly astonished that you would quote that scripture against my post TJ, did you not read it first, nor understand it?

Paul is making a straight forward rebuke against your notion of leadership, demonstrating that it is nothing but infantile carnality at work!
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; or I am a Baptist,are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
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See : Acts 9:20 - Matthew 4:23 - and it goes on

Jesus Himself preached from the front. there was a structure when He preached in the synagogues or in public and the was a worldy heirarchy as is always refected in the heavenlies
Of course Jesus preached from the front. That's because Jesus, not your pastor, is the head of the body. Jesus is the source. Jesus is the Logos. Your pastor is not your head.
That's why it dishonours Christ for you or me to place another man over our heads to cover us instead of Jesus.
1Cor11v3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

Jesus is the only mediator, and scripture makes it plain that he ministers through ALL members of the body, not just the man at the front with the badge and title.
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I cannot see how this idealistic view can be put into practice - where a Church can have all people being as one - using their gifts...being brought together as a congegation [Ekklesia]
Ah, the breath of rampant unbelief speaks.
Just because you have never seen it doesn't mean its not there to be seen.
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Unless they never meet ? [which is a spiritual unmeeting  Church .

As a sunday school teacher for over 25 years I had to have a covering to ensure the safety of the children and God could not do CRB checks on my behalf.
CRB is a completely different issue, a red herring.
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There had to be a hirierachy in place to ensure the safety of those children and me.
If you think that hierarchy protects children, then perhaps you need to read the extensive history of the regular abuse attributed to trusting the hierarchy of the church.
Believing in the benevolence of the hierarchy is one of the main causes of abuse and the primary tool that Satan uses to destroy people. But that's not the reason for my stance in regards to church function. Everything I say is based on clear scriptural precept.
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To say "nor is the notion of leading an assembly of the ekklesia from the front found in scripture " is absurd

It has to have a structure - and a heirarchy -  structure - put into place...otherwise teachers would go unchecked and tongues would go unchecked.....How on earth could a Church function while having only God and using the Holy Spirit ?
Sorry TJ, but its not absurd at all. You need to read all of 1Cor, not just selected bits.
Certainly, there is a place for a teacher such as Paul, to be at the front teaching, but that's different to the general meeting of the ekklesia.
Here is how the ekklesia should work.-
1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
There's nothing close to your hymn prayer sandwich so typical of most churches today. You will see that everyone is expected to contribute to the voice of God speaking through the gifts of the spirit to the whole body. There is no sign of a leader controlling who says what and when.
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It sounds good - but without an accountability to others - and the overseeing by others things would soon descend
Wrong again TJ.
They are not accountable to a hierarchy, they are accountable to each other.
1Cor14v29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Take note its not the leader who judges, its the other members who judge, and that also includes all prophetic utterances including vision or interpretations etc.

The church is like a weekly swimming class. For "safety sake" the leaders never let anyone near the water. Their defense being that the children will drown because they haven't learnt to swim yet.
And of course they never will learn to swim in the classroom, anymore than christians will learn to walk in the spirit all the time they sit suckling at the tit of the pastor.
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I wonder why their are elders around the Throne of God ?  Revelation 4:10  the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
Again this has nothing to do with leadership in church.
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Sorry to challenge you @francis drake [it pains me]
Haha TJ. I cannot imagine why it pains you? We are having fun are we not?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2016, 01:38:57 PM »
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Haha TJ. I cannot imagine why it pains you? We are having fun are we not?

I haven't got time to have fun [puts a rose in francis's hair and plants him in the garden]


Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2016, 04:59:59 PM »
This whole debate is well illistrated in the history of Israel.
You have Moses, Joshua men lead by God but on the death of their successors Israel had no leaders who were men of God and as Judges tells us, every one did what was right in his own eyes.

God leads people in his service but does not promise that he will lead there successors in the same way. God may use a house church for the life time of its leader and that house church could struggle on seeking God or become a weird cult or as awkward and difficult as a tradition riddled denomination.
Paul organised beliefers into congragations with appointed leaders overthem.
There is only a hint of a parachurch organisation by the way the council in Jerusal;em sent orders to new converts/churches.
Today there are nolonger laws making attendance at your local CoE compulsory, nor do we have to pay a tithe to the church. We can worship in what ever way we believe God is calling us to, none of us can claim that the others worship practice is false without strong evidence.
The Christians of other traditions don't idle go to church. They have all sort out a group of belivers where Gods word is preached and where they are seeking to put it into practice and to label it unspiritual is to fall into the same trap as the ultra strict denomination did of our grandfathers generation did. When church and chapel did not mix.

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2016, 09:36:36 PM »
This whole debate is well illistrated in the history of Israel.
You have Moses, Joshua men lead by God but on the death of their successors Israel had no leaders who were men of God and as Judges tells us, every one did what was right in his own eyes.
This paragraph reveals the huge misunderstanding that christians have.
Moses was creating a new nation overnight, and that immediately required a whole statute book of law, plus a faithful military leader.
Paul makes it clear that the law was for intended for the punishment of law breakers and wicked people. If you believe that Moses is the pattern for church, then pity you John!
Gal1v8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Implying that Moses is the pattern for church management is not your best idea John. Paul calls is accursed.
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God leads people in his service but does not promise that he will lead there successors in the same way. God may use a house church for the life time of its leader and that house church could struggle on seeking God or become a weird cult or as awkward and difficult as a tradition riddled denomination.
Paul organised beliefers into congragations with appointed leaders overthem.
By leaders, I presume you refer to overseers. You need to know that the overseers were never meant to run the ministry, that was still down to the whole body ministering via the gifts of the spirit, not via the man at the front!
That is what scripture makes abundantly clear. Front led church is just a manifestation of mass unbelief in what God would do once men and their carnal solutions would get out of the way.
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There is only a hint of a parachurch organisation by the way the council in Jerusal;em sent orders to new converts/churches.
Explain please.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2016, 10:01:18 PM »
God gave the gifts to be used that the ekklesia should be built up and strengthened.

1Cor14v3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
By excluding the gifts from the ekklesia, we have excluded edification, exhortation and comfort directly from the spirit of God to the congregation

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Paul is not forbidding tongues, but pointing out that it needs interpretation in order to make it as valuable as prophecy.

1Cor14v24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Paul describes the value of prophecy, but intellectual christians consider it valueless when compared to their theology. That just shows the power of the Tree of Knowledge to cast aside the Tree of Life yet again.

1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren when ye come together?............
When you come together.............Ah, you mean church??

Every one of you
Everyone of you................I guess that doesn't mean just the man at the front then?

 ........hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
There he goes again. Ministry via the gifts, not man's theological expertise!

Lets stick it back together to make it easier.-
1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
It means what it says and equally applies today as when Paul wrote it, so stop ignoring it.

If you ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then you are left with man's intellect. Man's intellect on its own speaks only from the tree of knowledge even if its about the bible.
Even if its the bible, if its source is the tree of knowledge, then it spouts death.

@John, please tell me what has happened to those gifts today.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2016, 11:34:34 AM »
God gave the gifts to be used that the ekklesia should be built up and strengthened.

1Cor14v3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
By excluding the gifts from the ekklesia, we have excluded edification, exhortation and comfort directly from the spirit of God to the congregation

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Paul is not forbidding tongues, but pointing out that it needs interpretation in order to make it as valuable as prophecy.

1Cor14v24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Paul describes the value of prophecy, but intellectual christians consider it valueless when compared to their theology. That just shows the power of the Tree of Knowledge to cast aside the Tree of Life yet again.

1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren when ye come together?............
When you come together.............Ah, you mean church??

Every one of you
Everyone of you................I guess that doesn't mean just the man at the front then?

 ........hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
There he goes again. Ministry via the gifts, not man's theological expertise!

Lets stick it back together to make it easier.-
1Cor14v26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
It means what it says and equally applies today as when Paul wrote it, so stop ignoring it.

If you ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then you are left with man's intellect. Man's intellect on its own speaks only from the tree of knowledge even if its about the bible.
Even if its the bible, if its source is the tree of knowledge, then it spouts death.

@John, please tell me what has happened to those gifts today.

I find this very interesting.
From a daily debate back and forth this thread suddenly screeched to a halt and has remained silent for a whole week. I have pondered this as I watched for a reply.
Ooops, did Francis Drake say something offensive yet again?

My regular presentation of the supremacy of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as against the power of church hierarchy has been rejected on every occasion throughout the thread.
ie. Church authority trumps the Holy Spirit.

Has the forum been struck dumb by the clear scriptures illustrating Paul's instructions for the ekklesia? If the above scriptures offend your tradition, perhaps I should apologise on behalf of Paul and myself?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)