Author Topic: Spirit of God  (Read 1969 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2016, 11:29:28 PM »
When one compares the detailed instruction in the OT for how the israelites were to worship with the few instructions in the NT. One sees something of how radicle God is about our worship of him.
The priesthood in Israel also controlled political direction of the nation. That has little to do with the conduct of the church today.

In fact, much of the OT commandments came about as a response to their rebellion. ie. it was never intended that priests should only come from a single tribe, as God had actually called the whole nation to the priesthood and not just Levi.
Ex19v6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
Unfortunately Israel rebelled and built the golden calf, and when Moses called for those on the Lord's side to step forward, only Levi responded!
Levi alone took the responsibility of intercessory priesthood.
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Add into the mix the facts that God has used highly structured churches in revival ( or at least those in that organisation who are willing ) as well as the unstructured church.
That's a nonsense argument John. The fact that God has used highly structured churches in revival is utterly irrelevant to scriptural truth.
I have on occasion bashed a nail in with a pair of pliers, but that is no evidence that a pair of pliers is a hammer!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2016, 12:15:45 AM »
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Will there be districts for the CoE, Baptists etc

I hope so  @John 

Something must change  :D


Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2016, 08:03:18 AM »



I did not say they are wrong and I do not think the way some are setup are right.

I'm talking about scripture and the way the early Church was setup before all this.

Nothing to do with some of todays - goings on

Under the context of " The Church and Its Leaders"     1 Corinthians 3  explains that the Church at that time clearly had leaders

1Cor3 which obviously follows after Paul's rebuke in chapter1, condemns the way church chases after leadership TJ. You need to read it before posting as it doesn't help your argument one little bit.

1Cor1v11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

And he repeats the rebuke later.
1Cor3v1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.


Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for chasing after leaders instead of Christ. He is clear that this was one of the reasons they remained infantile milk sucklers unable to eat meat.
That is a picture of todays church. Instead of "I am of Paul or I am of Apollos", it's "I am a Baptist or I am an Anglican."

Paul himself made it clear that he did not want to be counted as their "leader!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2016, 08:06:05 AM »


This is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders!

That's a crap translation TJ. The word "Leader" is not even mentioned in the Greek!

"Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;"
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2016, 02:29:43 PM »
The early Church stil had leaders though,

The only fault was in others parading them [as you say]


TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2016, 02:53:31 AM »
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The concept of leader as paraded by the church is not in scripture,

It is 1 Corinthians 3:4 KJV For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?



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nor is the notion of leading an assembly of the ekklesia from the front found in scripture

See : Acts 9:20 - Matthew 4:23 - and it goes on

Jesus Himself preached from the front. there was a structure when He preached in the synagogues or in public and the was a worldy heirarchy as is always refected in the heavenlies



I cannot see how this idealistic view can be put into practice - where a Church can have all people being as one - using their gifts...being brought together as a congegation [Ekklesia]

Unless they never meet ? [which is a spiritual unmeeting  Church .

As a sunday school teacher for over 25 years I had to have a covering to ensure the safety of the children and God could not do CRB checks on my behalf.

There had to be a hirierachy in place to ensure the safety of those children and me.

To say "
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nor is the notion of leading an assembly of the ekklesia from the front found in scripture
" is absurd

It has to have a structure - and a heirarchy -  structure - put into place...otherwise teachers would go unchecked and tongues would go unchecked.....How on earth could a Church function while having only God and using the Holy Spirit ?

It sounds good - but without an accountability to others - and the overseeing by others things would soon descend

When one compares the detailed instruction in the OT for how the israelites were to worship with the few instructions in the NT. One sees something of how radicle God is about our worship of him.
Add into the mix the facts that God has used highly structured churches in revival ( or at least those in that organisation who are willing ) as well as the unstructured church.
But in every church there is someone to whom all problems, all disissions, all responcibility ends with. The buck stops with someone.

What I wonder about is how is heaven organised? Will there be districts for the CoE, Baptists etc or will it be arranged according to faith ie. tjhose with great faith are in circle no xxx, those with little faith in circle xxxxx, or will there be a free for all, which as there is no night is a bit rough for us late comers.

How do you think heaven is organised? Will there be any bishops?

Yes heaven has a hierarchy @John

I wonder why their are elders around the Throne of God ?  Revelation 4:10  the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:



Sorry to challenge you @francis drake [it pains me]



Offline John

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2016, 06:10:19 PM »
Francis, the priesthood didn't controll the political direction of Isreal, that was done by the king, or the govenor installed by the ruling power.

As for relevence of God using Church structures etc, what you forget is that we are all sinners saved by grace, whether a bishop, vicar, nonconformist or house church leader and God in his grace uses us.
There is no formula that we can apply to organise a group of Christians. We have to be aware of how the spirit leads us and speaks to us and to examine carefully the teachings and practises of any church or Christian group.
Many Christian are convinced they are called to worship and to work within the structure of their church. Who is right Francis? Are they all deluded, listening to evil spirits?
Or is this a matter where One Christianaccepts that God is leading him in a direction but that other Christians are being lead in another direction.

Lets be blunt is the only person on this forum who has truely heard God speaking you Francis?
Or have other People, I assume you'll accept we are Christian had Gods confirmation that they are where he wants them?

Offline Rose Anna

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2016, 09:45:56 AM »
Surely the celestial and Godly hierarchies are entirely different to other hierarchies.

Paul was a leader anointed by God, who wrote about the Body of Christ, that every true born again child of God has a part in.

The problem is that the religious hierarchies, are entirely different to the God led early church structure. The religious hierarchy does quench the Spirit of God.
Too many of these leaders of these hierarchies promote what they think and dont seek God, through their worldly lenses not seeing how God looks at the heart and not outward appearances. God works through humility and not arrogance and pomp.
Too many are prevented where the Spirit of God is not put first and the leaders put on a platform as demi gods , always the same people encouraged into missionary and ministry. Others discouraged and the Body of Christ disabled there, shooting their wounded. Very much so and I agree very much with Francis. Only not completely,because I do believe even within those fallen structures God will work and there are anointings. Only God can work so much more and flourish when the Body of Christ is enabled, through humilty and would flourish.I see God working through His people in many settings that are not in a church structure and in every day life. Where they would be prevented through the church structure that does not operate as the Body of Christ. As said God does work on individuals within that structure but not as the visible church structure but through the invisible Body of Christ, dotted about on individuals within and outside of the visible structures.   Its my believe that God is breaking down those structures to take away the eyes from religious denominational thinking and not be caught up with that but with Him and so He can flourish through His Body of people. This forum is an example of a place where those barriers can be bro
ken down. So thank you Guards. :D