Author Topic: Spirit of God  (Read 1966 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Serenity

  • Guest
Spirit of God
« on: September 15, 2015, 09:31:57 AM »
Isaiah 11

2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him?
    the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
    the Spirit of counsel and of might,
    the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord?

3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.
   He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
   or decide by what he hears with his ears;

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
   with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
   He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
   with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
   and faithfulness the sash around his waist



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Spirit of wisdom
Spirit of understanding
Spirit of counsel
Spirit of might
Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Righteousness will be his belt
Faithfulness the sash around his waist

This had me thinking about the armour of God, and how things Godly are described as pieces of garments.  How these are your defence.  How these are also spiritual.

Ephesians 6

14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord?s people
.


Have to get ready for work now, but wanted to get my thought process down on paper so to speak before I go, because I don't normally get this 'in a morning', so hopefully there is a rhyme or reason for it.






Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 09:58:24 PM »
From Adam onwards, the Holy Spirit has longed to indwell man.
Unfortunately, from Adam onwards, mankind has also generally preferred his own intellect.

The church has taught that the Holy Spirit was not poured out till Pentecost, but holding back the Holy Spirit was only because of man's preferences to live in darkness. There have always been people who sought for the Holy Spirit, such as Moses, Elijah, or Elisha.

So what does wisdom say to us? Wisdom of course being the personification of God.

Proverbs1v20Wisdom cries aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open square:

21She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying,

22How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? and the scoffers delight in their scoffing, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;

27When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whosoever hearkens unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be secure from the fear of evil.

As we can see, the Holy Spirit was always available for those who asked.

What did Jesus say, long before Pentecost?

Luke11v11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Did you read that, "How much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask!" This is long before Pentecost! It is my personal belief that the disciples meeting in the upper room after the ascension, had to come to the end of themselves before they realised that they were hopeless unless the grasped a hold of this promise. I do not believe that Jesus was merely setting a timetable for the HS, but that he was waiting for them to ask before he could do it.
Are we asking?

Man was made for the residence of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit knows where he is welcome and where he is not welcome.
What sort of welcome do we give the Holy Spirit, in comparison to the welcome for our own earthly intellect.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 12:45:57 AM »
From Adam onwards, the Holy Spirit has longed to indwell man.
Unfortunately, from Adam onwards, mankind has also generally preferred his own intellect.

Quote
The church has taught that the Holy Spirit was not poured out till Pentecost, but holding back the Holy Spirit was only because of man's preferences to live in darkness. There have always been people who sought for the Holy Spirit, such as Moses, Elijah, or Elisha.

So what does wisdom say to us? Wisdom of course being the personification of God.

Proverbs1v20Wisdom cries aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open square:

21She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying,

22How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? and the scoffers delight in their scoffing, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;

27When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whosoever hearkens unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be secure from the fear of evil.

As we can see, the Holy Spirit was always available for those who asked.

Quote
What did Jesus say, long before Pentecost?

Luke11v11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Did you read that, "How much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask!"
Quote
This is long before Pentecost!
It is my personal belief that the disciples meeting in the upper room after the ascension, had to come to the end of themselves before they realised that they were hopeless unless the grasped a hold of this promise.
Quote
I do not believe that Jesus was merely setting a timetable for the HS, but that he was waiting for them to ask before he could do it.
Are we asking?

Man was made for the residence of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit knows where he is welcome and where he is not welcome.
What sort of welcome do we give the Holy Spirit, in comparison to the welcome for our own earthly intellect.

I agree, yet I cannot think of times when the Holy Spirit was poured out to a group as a whole [Old Testament Church] !

From Pentecost and onwards [last days] God is more evidently pouring out His Holy Spirit on "Groups" [Church] definition = God's people congregating together eg * Acts 2:3 *.  They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them


Whereas the Old testament *Church*Holy Spirit  seems to descend on - but not indwell  individuals - as you suggest @francis drake.......such as Elijah and Elisha, Moses and David.


A strange example might be found by looking @ Numbers 24:2; When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him Balaam being a wicked person as such so we see :  the high priest John 11:51; He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,

In this the Holy Speaks through the Spirit of prophesy through men or women [not of Himself- re : not belonging to Him]

The Spirit may speak through those "not of God" which can deceive those listening..

As I suggest "the Holy Spirit seems to descend upon individuals  in the OT." - whereas in the NT - The Holy Spirit seems to dwell in and come upon groups of people








TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 12:59:41 AM »
The testimony of a group "Church" congregation .....* body * in the New Testament seems to be of greater strength and significance

Than the testimony of an individual in the Old testament..

As one on their own can be mislead whereas a group holding a bond and agreement together all hearing the same word and agreeing upon [such as Matthew 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name

Having suggested that the Holy Spirit never seemed to come upon *groups" in the Old Testament [ I now eat my own words as we look at ]  Numbers 11:16:   16The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you. 17"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them;

So here we have the Old Testament *Church * judging the nations...........



Of course this part of the OT is often used as a symbol of the "Church" in the New Testament and as symbolic of

BUT note - "I WILL PUT HIM UPON THEM"

As  opposed to the New Testament = 1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?

But still the Spirit can prophecy and speak through the ungodly [as symbolized in the Old Testament..[Now Today] / ongoing living "Word"



Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 12:06:17 PM »

I agree, yet I cannot think of times when the Holy Spirit was poured out to a group as a whole [Old Testament Church] !
What about when the Lord poured out the spirit on the seventy elders?

?Numbers11v25Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again. 26But two men had remained in the camp; the name of one was Eldad and the name of the other Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them (now they were among those who had been registered, but had not gone out to the tent), and they prophesied in the camp. 27So a young man ran and told Moses and said, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."?
Quote
From Pentecost and onwards [last days] God is more evidently pouring out His Holy Spirit on "Groups" [Church] definition = God's people congregating together eg * Acts 2:3 *.  They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them
That happened because the 120, as a group, cried out for it in the upper room. Elsewhere it happened on individuals or groups no more than with the seventy in the OT.
Quote

Whereas the Old testament *Church*Holy Spirit  seems to descend on - but not indwell  individuals - as you suggest @francis drake.......such as Elijah and Elisha, Moses and David.

Awe come on TJ, think man! You can do better than parroting standard church doctrine at me. Lol. 
In truth there is zero biblical support for such an assertion despite it being repeated from generation to generation. Its just playing with semantics.

Firstly all OT and NT believers had to be born again by the Spirit of God, otherwise they were spiritually dead, and I think we both already agree on that one?

Consider this TJ. Demons could indwell people in the Old Testaments period, yet according to church tradition, the Spirit of God couldn't indwell them. Is that for real? Is Satan more able that the Holy Spirit? It really is time we trashed foolish traditions.
The nonsense of being able to have evil spirits but not the holy Spirit, just doesn't stack up with the character of God, real life, or scripture!

If God never changes, why argue that they couldn't be filled with the Spirit when all the evidence demonstrates they frequently were?

Both OT and NT constantly talk about the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and use oil as a metaphor for that, so how can it mean completely different things in the OT and the NT? You forget that man was actually created as a temple for the HS!
Jesus told his followers they could have the HS just by asking did he not, and they were still under the Old Covenant till his death! and you only have to read the Psalms to see that David had a vibrant relationship with the Holy Spirit.
Quote
As I suggest "the Holy Spirit seems to descend upon individuals  in the OT." - whereas in the NT - The Holy Spirit seems to dwell in and come upon groups of people

Stop stop stop TJ. Stop and think prayerfully, then ask where that notion came from and why. As a doctrine it creates a completely false foundation of the nature and work of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus made it clear that the Father would pour out the Holy Spirit on those who ask. He made that statement whilst still in the OT period, therefore it had always been true for those who ask in faith, and the prophets of old prove that fact. Look at Elisha demanding a double portion!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 01:49:59 PM »
Quote
Awe come on TJ, think man! You can do better than parroting standard church doctrine at me. Lol.

Is it Church doctrine ? I picked it up from "faithforums"  online forum ten years or so ago and it stuck in my mind - so I'm throwing it back out now to have it chewed over, so if anything it's *online * doctrine..

Although there are many scriptures in both Old and New Testaments regarding the role of the Holy Spirit - as you say @francis drake their were born again individuals in  the OT, so although the Holy Spirit never changes neither do His works/roles.

I'm thinking mainly of the "Holy Spirit Promise" in John 16:7; But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


How might this promise differ from ages gone by  ?

Serenity

  • Guest
Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 01:54:48 PM »
If He didn't go away then they wouldn't learn to walk without Him either.  At what point are we told about doubting Thomas? do you think it was only Thomas in that room that was a doubter?

Offline francis drake

Re: Spirit of God
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 11:52:31 PM »
Is it Church doctrine ? I picked it up from "faithforums"  online forum ten years or so ago and it stuck in my mind - so I'm throwing it back out now to have it chewed over, so if anything it's *online * doctrine..

Although there are many scriptures in both Old and New Testaments regarding the role of the Holy Spirit - as you say @francis drake their were born again individuals in  the OT, so although the Holy Spirit never changes neither do His works/roles.

I'm thinking mainly of the "Holy Spirit Promise" in John 16:7; But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.


How might this promise differ from ages gone by  ?

Rachael has beaten me to it TJ.

They were so used to waiting on Jesus that unless they were left alone for a time, they would never grasp hold of what he told them to do, ie. ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.

In my imagination, after Jesus left they initially started "organising church" their own way by first of all getting the "committee" to replace Judas with Matthias. He is never heard of again.

The upper room "committee's" organisation of God's work needed putting to death before they came to the place of asking the "helper" to do the work through them just like he did with Jesus.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)