Author Topic: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon  (Read 623 times)

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Offline Seeker

Re: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2015, 04:10:28 PM »

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I'm going to have to go look up the word 'carnal' now :rolleyes: I have heard of that word before though, but can't remember it's precise meaning.

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Offline Amadeus

Re: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2015, 10:31:22 PM »
I'm going to have to go look up the word 'carnal' now :rolleyes: I have heard of that word before though, but can't remember it's precise meaning.

Carnal is simply talking about being of meat or of flesh. Have you heard of 'Chili con carne'? It mean 'chili with meat'. The word "carne" is the Spanish word for "meat".[The Spanish word, carne, and the English word, carnal, have a common origin, probably from a Latin word.]The word "carnal" is an adjective (descriptive) word such as "fleshy" or "meaty". Related to man in scripture "carnal" means "of the flesh" or "fleshy". In the scripture, carnal is often opposed to spiritual as material is to immaterial. 

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." Rom 17:14

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Rom 8:6

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." I Cor 3:1

Serenity

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Re: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 11:04:19 PM »
Like a lot of language with Latin origin, its extremely similar....carnal = carnalis = flesh.

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"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Rom 8:6

So you need to examine yourself for flesh in your life and do something about it, with God. 





TJ

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Re: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 07:14:14 PM »
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It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. ? 1 Corinthians 11:10

The passage in Corinthians clearly teaches of headship where God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman. Though Biblical submission is right woman are not inferior spiritually but one in Christ. Yet they must choose to submit and humble themselves just as Christ humbled himself before the Father. God?s government and way of order is in such a way where each member must do his or her part. When women or men choose not to fulfill and walk in God?s ways for the Church, disorder and every evil practice ensues. The importance of head covering is not an outward reason but an spiritual reality proclaimed to the principalities and powers. When the head covering is practiced it proclaims God?s order and way to all of creation, including the angels (1 Peter 1:12). K.P. Yohannan says, ?Have you considered why there is so much tension and fighting over placing a small piece of cloth on one?s head? When a woman wears the symbol of God?s government, a head covering, she is essentially a rebuke to all the fallen angels. Her actions say to them, ?You have rebelled against the Holy God, but I submit to Him and His headship. I choose not to follow your example of rebellion and pride.'? Eve fell into satan?s rebellion (2 Corinthians 11:3), yet now in the Church women declare they are following God?s order in the Church (1 Timothy 2:12-14).

Watchman Nee says, ?When many of the sisters in the church take the place given to woman and learn to cover their heads, they send out an unspoken word of testimony to the angels in the air, to the effect that God has obtained in the church what He desires.? Hippolytus an early Church Father wrote, ?let all the women have their heads covered.? Others who taught this practice in the Church were, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Early Church Fathers, John Wesley, Matthew Henry to name just a few. We must remind ourselves that until the twentieth century, virtually all Christian women wore head coverings. As we worship together as the Church we enter into worship with the holy angels in heaven who cover their faces (Isaiah 6:2). In the same way sisters covering their heads show they honouring of the glory of God. Clement of Rom in A.D. 96 said, ?Then let us gather together in awareness of our concord? speaking of the holy angels when we worship. The Church is to gather and worship God in the spirit (John 4:24) doing things that the world considers foolish but for the Lord there is great significance. Paul speaking as inspired by the Holy Spirit said, ?we have no other practice?nor do the churches of God? (1 Corinthians 11:16). It was not just a local custom or practice but all the Churches were practicing this as with water Baptism and Holy Communion. This was not an optional thing as the default was all the Churches were doing it. But Paul gives grace to those who are not convinced of its importance from the Lord as the Corinthians partly were divided over many issues including this one.

[It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head,


Yes that's excellent - that was the message at Ch-ch today...

It was kind of saying that most would begin @ Ephesians 5:22-33

But the original greek text has no fullstop's. or commas - chapters, - verses it simply reads with 1 every now and again

And this should begin [if there is a beginning @ Ephesians 5:21  ? which is Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

As Christ washed the feet of the disciples - he showed how He Himself not only washed feet and submitted to others  - but humbled /submitted Himself unto death for others.

When we go forward to verse 22 of Ephesians we then see .....................Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

But in the Greek there is no *submit* it simply reads Wives,  yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

The translators simply carried the *submit* over from verse 21

And then of cause it goes on to

Wives to husbands

Husbands to wives

Children to parents

Fathers to children

Workers to employers

Employers to workers

Which is the submitting to one another in verse 21

Or in this case "slaves to owners" and in this you had the addressing  to slaves in The Church .

In some cases even a child can choose not to submit to their parents in certain instances [as is fitting in the Lord - Or as unto God]

In all cases the Lord is the head



There you go - two hours sleep .....and he was still listening this morning   reader:




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Offline francis drake

Re: Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2015, 10:36:14 PM »
Whether Paul was really talking about women wearing hats in church, or men being bare headed is a moot point, one that I personally reject.
However, even if it was true back then for the Corinthians, it should never be applied as a blanket rule. Praying with bare head would have been the very opposite of Jewish practice and an offense to them, even if Paul insisted it was right for Corinth!

I suspect it was a practice of, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
ie. There were significant common traditions that the Romans or the Corinthians did that made Jewish customs appear offensive to them, and which would send the wrong signals out.

To understand this, lets compare the political scenes in the UK and USA. In the last UK general election, the Labour (ie. the UK leftists) party paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to the American, David Axelrod, to advise them on their strategy. David Axelrod had also been an advisor to Democrat (ie. the USA leftists) candidate Barack Obama in the 2008 and 2012 elections over there.
However if Axelrod had not changed his colours, (or colors lol) when he crossed the pond, confusion would have ensued over here.
It was a simple matter of what colour represented what party.

In the UK, the leftists (Labour)march under the red flag, the rightists (Conservatives) march under the Blue banner.
In the USA, the leftists (Democrats) march under the blue banner, the rightists (Republicans) march under the red banner.

Every image in Axelrod's head would need reversing if he was to comprehend UK politics. There was no way he could get the whole of the UK to reverse its traditions to suit an outsider, and the same would be true for Paul on entering Corinth. He had to understand and make use of what they knew. Certain traditions conveyed certain signals. He could not reverse that any more than he should have made all the Greeks learn Hebrew.

Just to pick out the two key verses related to men and praying.-

 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. ...........

.................7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God;


The problem with this is that Jewish men, Paul included, would always wear head coverings during prayer. Today is no different, whether a prayer shawl, the kippah, or both, their heads are covered during prayer times.
Now when I have mentioned this on other forums, it is usually pointed out that the kippah and prayer shawl is a modern judaic tradition, but that ignores the fact that all around that area, men wore similar head coverings much like the arabs seen today. This was and is largely determined by the climate!

However the main evidence is that the High Priest was commanded to wear a very special turban as part of his ceremonial garments.
So how can Paul tell the Corinthians that for men to wear headgear during prayer, it was an offense to God, when God himself had already commanded the high priest and his sons to wear headgear?

Thus if the command for men to refrain from hats is suspect, then so is the command for women to have a hat on before prayer.

Please can someone explain?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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