Poll

Your view of the unsaved, in eternity. You can click on up to three options that resembles your view.

They will suffer in a literal fire .Tortured for all eternity with no turning back.
5 (16.1%)
They will suffer eternally but it won't be a literal fire.
3 (9.7%)
The saved live for eternal life but the unsaved  will perish and cease to exist.
7 (22.6%)
Most people will be saved except for the devil, his angels and a few like them.
2 (6.5%)
Everyone will be saved.
1 (3.2%)
Not sure.
3 (9.7%)
Another view.
1 (3.2%)
The devil and his angels will perish into non existance
2 (6.5%)
The devil and his angels will be tormented for all eternity.
7 (22.6%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]  (Read 1291 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Articulate - share to calendar - viewable to guests - post an article today - be your own admin - lock your own topic - share with a friend - join the articulate group today - register @ https://www.1faith.co.uk/ and go to profile/membergroups/

I've edited this to start off by mentioning three main views and putting them into categorised boxes. I've also added a poll to see your views. I think though you can only see it if you log on.

Three main views of hell but there are more views.
Sometimes we can't categorise all the possibilities and all  the possible  outcome. Yet to simplify have mentioned three main categories.

 Evangelical Views On Hell
You may have assumed that there has been only one historically held view of hell throughout Christendom: believers will go to heaven and those who do not trust in Christ before they die will go to an eternal hell.But there have actually been three primary views held by Christians including many variations within each.

Traditionists
First, there is the traditional view which has dominated the last 1500 years. It is that of eternal conscious torment for all those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in this life.  After death there is no longer any hope considered for them.
There are a variety of views, within the shared view that the soul is indestructible. Therefore although "perished" in a ruined sense, the  person suffers for all eternity, with no turning back.
Some interpret that as a tortured soul.

Others believe that hades is the waiting place for judgement, where they will be raised  purposely with a imperishable body, in order to suffer the most intense torture possible,  for all eternity, with no escape ever, in gehenna, the lake of fire.

 Some believe that there will be different degrees of suffering, according to their judgement . Some even believe that that  was God's plan for them. Others believe the fire is a metaphoric language and that it means that they suffer but with regret, but it won't be in a literal fire.  This view has some similar views to universalism  in that everyone exists in eternity.  Only the Universalists  believe that they undergo a refining period ,in order to turn to Jesus but will be saved in the end.

Conditional Immortality
Second, there is the view of Annihilationism which is sometimes referred to as Conditional Immortality. Proponents of this view believe that all those who do not receive the gift of immortality from the gospel of Christ, will meet a total destruction resulting in complete extinction of body, soul and spirit. Some  believe that the total destruction will happen in refusal of the gospel.  Others believe that it will be after undergoing more opportunities for the gospel, but continually refusing will result in complete extinction, in the end. Some believe that they will not have any consciousness after the first death in hades, but will be raised for judgement in a mortal body. Then cease to exist.

Universalism

It has been called by many names such as Christian Universalism, Evangelical Universalism, Ultimate Reconciliation/Restoration and the Wider Hope.  This view considers any concept of hell as remedial and its duration as temporary resulting in a final and total restoration of all of creation.  The outcome of complete restoration is based on the life, death, and resurrection of the historical Jesus Christ whose redemptive Story is found in the Scriptures.

Reference  adapted from  www.christianuniversalism.com/articles/evangelical-views-of-hell/

I found through several resources and websites said that Plato and greek philosophy infiltrated the church bringing in the traditional view of hell. Showing it's pagan roots and it wasn't there in the early church. When several resources say that then it shows the reliability of information.

My view

My view mainly fits conditional immortality. That is  because I don't believe it's in God's nature to torture people for all eternity, with no turning back, and without absolutely making it clear.  The following are powerful scriptures supporting conditionism.
John 3:16
Exodus 32:32
Romans 9:3
Ezekiel 28:13-19
Ezekiel 18:23
Mark 9:48   
 Isaiah 66:28 Isaiah 5:24 Isaiah 1:31
1 Corinthians 15:26


I'm also bordering universalism, because I believe most will turn to Christ in the end, probably in a refining  time. Hope its not wishful thinking. Matthew 11:21  Psalm 22:27 Psalm 64:9 Psalm 72:11 Isaiah 40:5 Zephaniah 2:11
 Haggai 2:7 Luke 3:6 Galatians 3:8 Philippians 2:10, 11 Revelation 7:9

I disagree with some aspects of universalism. I don't believe that salvation is automatic and believe many will reject the gospel, although most won't in the end.I don't believe that  everyone is  born with an immortal soul and that everyone is born mortal. The only person who was born immortal was Christ. 1 Timothy 1:17 John 8:58

 The Word who became flesh and made His dwelling among us.John 1:14 He made it possible to offer us immortality as a gift. 2 Timothy 1:10 Romans 2:7

Where I disagree with conditional immortality is that I believe that the mortal spirit/soul out lives the body, although  all spiritual beings are mortal and capable of perishing. Just living much longer than flesh and blood. Genesis 6:3 Matthew 10:28 Unless they have immortality from the gift of the gospel. Romans 2:7 2 Corinthians 4:7

I believe that Adam and Eve were created  deathless but not immortal and would have lived on if they didn't sin. Like God's angels and just would live on unless  they sinned. Therefore mortal but God's angels becoming immortal at the resurrection, in eternity when the corruptible is replaced with the incorruptible.

Therefore my views within those restricting categories fit mainly  conditional immortality  and bordering universalism.


Why I don't believe eternal death is suffering in a literal fire for all eternity. Decided to put this together gradually looking up scriptures and resources.  As I don't have time to do this in one go.

Well there are some christians who will fiercely disagree and some will be offended when I really express what I want to say. Some won't as well.
I'm really in a way dreading posting this but at the same time want to.
People misunderstand but at the end of the day God knows us all

Well I hope that what I believe is correct because I do not intend to err. Yet  bear in mind that no one is perfect and still learning, for what we see now is a faint glimpse in the mirror and then we see face to face. This is a sincere  search for the truth,at the end of the day.
If someone disagrees and wants to challenge this on this forum, then I ask that it's done with a Spirit of gentleness and humility when I finish, because a lot of these issues are very painful to many people and not just me.


If no one is going to read this then it's just my thoughts here and talking to myself. Hope this is read.

I've been a christian for 29  years and from the beginning have always questioned a  literal hell fire and what it's about.  I know plenty of Christians who know God well enough to realise that it's not  suffering in a literal  fire,  for all eternity.   There are others as well who emphasis that it is literally a hell fire for all eternity and that is why the gospel is urgent.

Well, I think the gospel is urgent because everyone is in urgent need to be saved from "perishing" and is in urgent need for Christ . Man cannot live on bread alone but needs the Word and Spirit of God for now and for all eternity.

So want to seek the Spirit of truth because in these type of debates and discussions the carnal side really does come out. I've seen it argued that in not believing in a literal eternal fire,then you are following false teachings from cults in christiandom and antichrist spirits, that are also behind the rise in atheism.

Has it been considered though that God wants to take out a lot of false doctrine in the institutional church and replace it with the truth.  He after all has been completely misunderstood and  completely falsely portrayed. Has it been considered there is a tangle of truth and error as well, which hurts the Body of Christ.

It needs a very fine sensitivity to God's Holy Spirit and seeking the truth and really looking at the Words properly, without skimming over them. Also questioning some of the  doctrines of some reformers who brought these concepts into the church and they get accepted as sound teachings. Are they sound though in God's eyes. How do they fit truth and reality because I see a lot of people supporting the hell fire for all eternity view. Then when someone dies and there are uncertaintys of whether they are saved they say " Well at least they are out of their suffering. "
So do they really believe their own words in a tangible sense. It's like they accept it but don't really follow it through. James 1:22 That's one example among many.These are things that came into my mind before I saw it on the Internet.

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity.
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 07:37:15 PM »
What first brought me to wondering about this topic and questioning the traditional view of hell, was the word " perish".

For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.  John 3:16
This scripture gave me comfort, reassurance and assurance that it's not going to be a literal fire of suffering for all eternity. 

This scripture set me free in many ways for the message of eternal life and also because it had the word "perish"in it  and not eternal suffering. This just connected to the way I know and relate to God. In ways that you can't describe how the wind blows but this is my gentle compassionate Father who I know. This is Him.
Why should I and anyone else who has this view be falsely accused of false doctrine and following a cult.
I find though a great many others share my view but not everyone wants to share, because you get these christians who get so furiously aggressive.I don't believe for one minute that  it's  righteous anger or God Wrath at all, but the carnal side. That can also bring out a harshness and judgement  when compassion, humility and gentleness is needed.
There are lots of scripture showing that to perish means to come to an end. Annulled.

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 09:05:23 PM »
The biblical perish has been defined as " to lose " to fit the view of eternal torment,  or "to destroy" to fit annulation, which is recently termed as "conditional immortality". 

The  biblical perish can be looked at Reference : www.truthaccordingtoscriptures.com/documents/death/perish.php
This really is a very helpful website.
The context of the biblical perish can be looked at:
  In Genesis 41:36 that the land PERISH  through famine
Leviticus 26:38
ye shall PERISH among the heathen. The land of your enemies shall eat you up
Numbers 24:20
his latter end shall be that he PERISH for ever
Numbers 24:24
he also shall PERISH for ever (Alas, who shall live when God doeth this! v. 23)
Deuteronomy 4:26
ye shall soon utterly PERISH? ye shall not prolong your days? but shall utterly be destroyed
Deut. 11:17
the LORD's wrath? no rain? and lest ye PERISH quickly from off the good land
Deut. 26:5
A Syrian ready to PERISH was my father
Deut. 28:20
until thou be destroyed, and until thou PERISH quickly
Deut. 28:22
consumption? a fever? the sword? (etc.) they shall pursue thee until thou PERISH
Deut. 30:18
ye shall surely PERISH? ye shall not prolong your days
Joshua 22:20
that man PERISHED not alone in his iniquity (Achan, who was stoned and burned- 7:25)
Joshua 23:13
they shall be snare and traps? until ye PERISH from off this good land
Joshua 23:16
then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall PERISH quickly
Esther 7:4
to be destroyed, to be slain, and to PERISH
Esther 8:11
to destroy, to slay, and to cause to PERISH
Job 4:9
By the blast of God they PERISH, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed
Job 4:11
The old lion PERISHETH for lack of prey
Job 4:20
They are destroyed from morning to evening: they PERISH for ever without any regarding it
Job 6:18
They go to nothing, and PERISH (Cf. v. 17- they vanish? they are consumed)

Jeremiah 9:12
the land PERISHETH and is burned up like a wilderness
Jeremiah 10:11
even they shall PERISH from the earth
Jeremiah 10:15
in the time of their visitation they shall PERISH
Jeremiah 18:18
the valley also shall PERISH, and the plain shall be destroyed
Jeremiah 48:36
he riches that he hath gotten are PERISHED
Jeremiah 48:46
he people of Chemosh PERISHETH (Cf. v. 45- a fire? a flame? shall devour)
Jeremiah 49:7
Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel PERISHED from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished?
Ezekiel 25:7
I will cause thee to PERISH out of the countries: I will destroy thee
Joel 1:11
the harvest of the field is PERISHED
Amos 3:15
I will smite the winter house? houses of ivory shall PERISH, and the great houses shall have an end

Jonah 4:10
the gourd? came up in a night, and PERISHED in a night (the worm smote it that it withered- v.7)
Matthew 5:29
that one of thy members should PERISH, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
Matthew 5:30
that one of thy members should PERISH, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
Matthew 9:17
else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles PERISH
Luke 5:37
else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall PERISH
Luke 21:18
But there shall not an hair of your head PERISH
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have eternal life
John 3:16
that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life
John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which PERISHETH, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never PERISH
1 Corinthians 1:18
the preaching of the cross is to them that PERISH foolishness; but unto us? it is the power of God
Hebrews 1:11
They shall PERISH; but thou remainest
James 1:11
the grace of the fashion of it PERISHETH: so also shall the rich man fade away
1 Peter 1:7
being much more precious than of gold that PERISHETH
2 Peter 2:12
as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed? shall utterly PERISH in their own corruption
Psalm 9:6
a perpetual end? destroyed? their memorial is PERISHED with them (Cf. v. 5- for ever and ever)

Psalm 37:20
the wicked shall PERISH? they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 102:26
They shall PERISH, but thou shalt endure (Cf. v. 27- thy years shall have no end)
Psalm 112:10
he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall PERISH
Psalm 119:92
Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have PERISHED in mine affliction
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts PERISH
Proverbs 10:28
the expectation of the wicked shall PERISH (Cf. v. 27- the years of the wicked shall be shortened)

Ecclesiastes 9:6
their love?hatred? envy, is now PERISHED, neither have they any more portion for ever
Isaiah 26:14
dead, they shall not live? deceased? destroyed them, and made all their memory to PERISH
Isaiah 27:13
they shall come which were ready to PERISH
Isaiah 41:11
ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing: and they that strive with thee shall PERISH

In reading that you can see the context of what perish means. It means "destroyed ". Another word for destroyed is "Apollumi". Apollumi  is also interpreted to mean "lost" to fit  existing in eternal torment. Only it really doesn't make sense to me that it can be interpreted as lost, when it means destroyed.
There are scriptures that can appear like the unsaved are existing in torment. Yet there are more scriptures that show the finality of the unsaved. Therefore it can be suggested that there is metaphoric language, in the total destruction.

If you look at the new testament " where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched" Mark 9:48 This is one scripture among a few that is used to support the eternal suffering doctrine.  However, if you look at all the scriptures together you can see that eternal death is annulation.
In Isaiah 66:24 it also says the worm will not die or fire quenched.

Only that must be figuratively speaking, that the worm will have enough food to feed on,when the people repeatedly reject the Lord and it leads to their utter destruction. This is death leading to complete death.  Isaiah refers to annulation many times throughout the book and cannot be contradicting himself.

This makes me think of Jesus who was describing this to the people of the law who saw miracle after miracle,the fulfillment of prophesy,  His Words, His Wisdom  and every wonderful thing about Jesus clearly and tangibly and they still rejected Him.

It can be taken as eternal torment, or as a complete destruction. As said, if you look at the scriptures together then it must be annulation. Isaiah 5:24  Isaiah 1:31 and much more in Isaiah and the bible.

The unsaved are referred to as stubble, vanishing like smoke, evaporating  mist and lots of analogy in the bible that shows their disappearance.

All the illustrations in the bible like this, are showing that the unsaved do not continue to exist. In the parable of the weeds , in Matthew 13:30 they will be burned. As what usually happens when clearing a field . They don't keep the weeds continually burning, year after year.

Analogy showneed in bible.

Tree pulled by its roots -annulation

 Job 14:7-9
For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. "Though its roots grow old in the ground And its stump dies in the dry soil, At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant.

 Isaiah 14:30

Those who are most helpless will eat, And the needy will lie down in security; I will destroy your root with famine, And it will kill off your survivors.


 Malachi 4:1

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."

 Matthew 3:10

The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

In Jude:5-7 Sodom and Gommorrah serve as an example of those who suffer punishment of eternal fire.

Is that fire still burning now?


1 Corinthians 15:25-26
FOR HE MUST REIGN UNTIL HE HAS PUT ALL HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.

Therefore death will be destroyed.  Death will come to an end . Only according to the suffering for eternity doctrine death is "existing" for all eternity,  which is the opposite of destroyed.

This discussion here doesn't even explain all of it, in supporting the finality. There's lots more that could be said. I think this is terrible and sad enough.















Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 10:49:22 PM »
             Reflections
I really feel in my spirit that there are a combination of reasons why people follow the doctrine of eternal torment. It's the traditional teaching of the church but it wasn't the teachings of the earlier and  early church.  It's been given status and validation but I think it is manmade and that it is Paganism.  It came from greek philosophy and reformers.

Those supporting the doctrine will say conditional immorality is false teaching. Well we can also say that the eternal torment is false teaching and Paganism.  Just ask God for the truth.

It is easy to interpret the metaphoric language that way and something  can create a fear of God but not in a healthy way, which can either make you feel you have to go along with it because of what He might do, or you hide away.

I think though it brings out a lot of harshness in christians. They judge rejection of the gospel.  Though not everyone is rejecting out of arrogance and hardness. Many people are damaged by their perception of GOD and feel rejected. Remembering that we were once in darkness we should have an attitude of humility towards unbelievers.  Only I see far too much inappropriate judgement towards them, and wanting to use that eternity torment doctrine, as a way of venting aggression from the fleshy attitude.  It's very, very fleshy and hostile.
Therefore reflect on yourself if you have that attitude.  Remember you were once blind to the Lord  and you have received His grace . Remember that some people need a gentle attitude and not everyone is arrogant like the pharisees.

See that lost child in need as JESUS was moved with compassion for the crowds. They were like sheep without a Shepherd. Matthew 9:36
How do you feel when you think about the people without Christ. How they are created in the image of GOD, and how dreadfully sad it is that one day that person won't exist.

The person has thoughts, emotions, life in them and to me it's absolutely dreadful if they come to a complete end. In their movement,  expression,  their sorrow for others , their smile ,the way they say "sorry" when they haven't done anything wrong much in passing by, the way they hold the door open to you, the way they let you in front of them in a queue, the way their love and concerns show for others in small ways and in big ways. There is this silient thought for them. It's a silient question to God. " Are they really going to be tormented for all eternity. "

They are God's masterpiece wonderfully and fearfully created. They are made in His image and it's there among the corruptness with it.  All the time, I ask that question and the thoughts that come flooding back are the sadness of them not existing one day and that is why the gospel is urgent. God doesn't want any of them to perish.
These thoughts are in the same way, as when God was drawing me, before I was saved and opening my eyes to His beauty and wonder in life and in creation.

They can only be from God. He is telling me He wants them to be saved to see the glory of His gospel to have eternal life. He doesn't want them to perish. He doesn't want them to discontinue. He wants to be in their lives.

As I was thinking these things I walked . Early in the morning I saw the wild flowers on the fields. The earthly glory. 1 Corinthians 15:40 .They looked beautiful with the morning dew and there was this thought that the dew will evaporate away. Sadly like the unsaved. Then I saw afterwards " They will be like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears,  like chaff swirling from a threshing floor ,like smoke escaping from a window." Hosea 13:3
" The life of mortals is like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
the wind blows over it and it is gone".

My vision .
In the beginning of the day, it's like the beginning of creation.  The early morning mist will evaporate and vanish into thin air.  The mist is the temporary era swallowed up by eternity.
The mist is what we see now.It is a glimpse and when the mist vanishes we will see face to face .1 Corinthians 13:12

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 05:55:13 PM »
The following are thoughts that I've seen about this topic, and are integrated with my own thoughts.
So I will start by talking about free will.  God gives us choice. It's true He has chosen us first but we need to respond to Him.

There is a consequence of our fallenness and our iniquity.  The wages of sin is "death ". That is because sin cannot come into the presence of the  Holyness of God. Christ made a way for us to enter the Holy of Holys, through the blood of Jesus. We can accept or reject that. In accepting we have eternal life . In rejecting we perish, as a consequence of sin.

The reality, face it:
That's a personal choice.  If however we choose to perish, then do we choose to perish into nothing which is more believable , or do we choose to perish within the most intense inscrutiating pain and torture you can imagine, not  just for a short while.  Not just for a millennium. Not just for trillions and billions of years. Yet for all eternity and with absolute no turning back at all. No way out.

Who is going to choose that?

If it's not choice then would it be in God's nature to take people by surprise, or should I say the most ultimate dreadful shocking horror ever, with no way out or no turning back ever for all eternity?

It is true God is a God of wrath and a God of love but isn't that way, way overly excessive and saying that is not even enough. It's eternally excessive. How is it fair that  80 years or so of sin has to pay back by eternity.
 We know that Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin. Only how many are sure of what they are saved from.
We know that God's wrath is on the godless and that He has made Himself clear in the beauty of creation. 

How clear is it though that on not accepting Jesus there is an eternity an ETERNITY of the utmost inscrutiating suffering for ever and ever, with absolutely no way out?


If there are christians really believing that, then why are they not proclaiming the gospel day and night,  why is it not on every poster,  pavement, window and every lamppost and why instead do they say "Well at least they are out of their suffering " when they die. " Yet support the view that a sinner is tortured for all eternity and attacking anyone who disagrees.

Is it really the certainty that rejecting salvation means torture for all eternity.Is it?

I'm sorry dear God if that is the truth but if the future is that dreadful for some then why isn't it made more blatantly obvious.  Are you going to take people into that dreadful ultimate shock?

You know of something so crucial so urgent that it has to be blatantly known and blatantly and blatantly understood by everyone. 

Only we are told there are glad tidings and good news. Most people focus that we live for today and are gone for tomorrow. 1 Corinthians 15:32 See the bible is full of telling you what  the wages of sin is.
What good news and glad tidings is there in saying for God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him will not be tortured for all eternity but will have joy for all eternity.
For that view is saying everyone exists in eternity but faith in Jesus changes it from dreadful to blissful.

Those with that view argue that you are not applying God's wisdom and not seeing through Gods eyes. What nonsense. With something so crucially imperative, God would make it as clear, as He is seen in creation. It's not something to fathom out. It should be blatantly obvious and as obvious as God is Himself.

Having said all that I still see the gospel as urgent.  It is urgent that people are saved from perishing as I reflected on earlier.

This is not dismissing the Holyness of God nor dismissing His wrath and love.  It's just not like those reformers  and greek philosophers said. In your heart of heart do you really honestly believe in eternal torture?


God is slow to anger and quick to be merciful and abundantly.  He is so slow to anger. He has a purpose for striking without warning sometimes. Yet in eternal suffering He can't spring on a dreadful shock, with no turning back and no clear way out. 

It is true that it's inbuilt that people know that God exists,  even if they deny that in their heart.  They will call out to Him.

Why then is it inbuilt for people to say " they are out of their suffering " when someone dies.  That includes those who support the view of eternal suffering.  I've heard them say it too. Therefore it's easily and clearly understood that the wages of sin is death and not something redefined.

If it was more complex then it must be blatantly understood and inbuilt. Yet those supporting the doctrine call it not understanding the deeper things of the Spirit.
Well I disagree.

 They have  argued that to be in eternal bliss then there must be an eternal torture, as well.

The paradox exists but I think that's misapplied.
 It's eternal life and living forever, or eternal death and ceasing to exist.

That's  existing for this short while to comply to the joys of the  temporary , or to the joys of the permanant. The temporary joy is like the morning mist evaporates away. As said in the bible.

Those supporting the eternal torture view call it human understanding when you call it a torture chamber. My response to that is to say "rubbish." They are believing Paganism.

 Does it mean that as we become perfect we lose our compassion. As we are in a life of eternal paradise there are those in an eternal torture chamber. 

My paradise indeed and no love , no compassion whatsoever.  I'm perfect just like Jesus  now.
If that's it, well I say no thanks to the paradise. I'm not going there, if it means multitudes suffer for all eternity . Though I don't choose to be in eternal torture for ever either. I still nevertheless choose Jesus.Thats not the real Jesus is it, in torturing in a literal fire with no turning back for all eternity .

Are those extremes eternal torment and eternal bliss, good news?

I can't help but think it completely misrepresents God and is more like blackmail, than Good news. Thank God He is NOT like that and it really is Good news. The real God has complete love and complete understanding and compassion.  He laid down His life for His enemy's.  He taught us to love our enemys and to be kind to the ungrateful.  He is not going to take us by shock  now and torture them for all eternity. 
Yes He is love and, He is Holy and He is Just  There is a  divine judgement and eternal death.  That's enough to want people to be saved and to live forever with God.

He disciplines and He corrects and with justice.  I cannot connect to eternal torture as being fair. With something so crucially imperative, surely we would connect to this, considering its going to be what affects 99.9999% of our existance.

I'm not in any way advocating anarchy nor encouraging defiance towards authority.  Just want to understand this.
I think that to come into judgement and have eternal death is enough for someone like Judas Iscariot to wish he was never born.  That's enough for anyone.

Only many reject the gospel for love of the world  and love for what is temporary and passing away, and reject JESUS.
I've heard people say that I do not desire to have eternal life as well.

Well they still forfeit their soul, which can be destroyed by God . He is sad by that and many of us are. We want people to live and with God.
Being so compassionate He would have no joy if multitudes were in the most dreadful suffering for all eternity. Ezekiel 18:32

If nearly all the future involves a great many being tortured for all eternity then what is the point in prolife and stopping abortion.  It would be better to not exist at all than for that.



If that's the future reality then how can we feel His compassion and tenderness in our sufferings of now.
If say I'm on holiday in bliss and the news breaks out multitudes are being tortured, how can that be complete bliss. It is often argued that in eternity  its removed from us but it's with God.

How could the torture of all eternity possibly give Him joy, and when He said I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.  Ezekiel 33:10-11

Only if the devil is going to be completely destroyed, then so are the others who are unsaved. Ezekiel 28:1-19



Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 12:08:41 AM »
Many biblical passages have shown us of  the finality of the unsaved. They perish, they are destroyed, consumed and are stubble,  smoke, mist vanishing and morning dew evaporating.

Yet those supporting the traditional view of hell have also been called literalists, because they take the description of the eternal fire as literal and that people will literally be in it for all eternity,  according to that doctrine. They rejected the scriptures as metaphoricly describing the consumption and of how a person discontinues and ceases to exist.
Only they have not taken the words such as "perish" and "destroy" literally and have redefined the definitions to fit their doctrine.

They argue that to perish means to be spoiled or ruined but to exist for all eternity in that condition, within a literal fire which burns endlessly, without ceasing and with no way out for all eternity, which is endless torture and torment. They claim that they were created for that purpose and purposely resurrected with an imperishible body, that can withstand the eternal fire. They implement  Daniel 12:2 for this.

Yet if you look at Revelation14:11, it says " the smoke " of their torment rises for ever and ever. It doesn't say that their  torment is forever and forever . John Stott.

These scriptures of eternal death can be interpreted as death "existing" in a state of death  for all eternity,  or as death coming to an end. Therefore death being destroyed, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:26
Only take all the scriptures together, and it must be that death is literally destroyed. If you place Revelation14:11 with Ezekiel 28:8-19 then it must be annulation and death being totally destroyed . It just cannot mean anything else. If you also do that with all of them, then you get a clearer understanding. Gnashing teeth is in the old testament too.
Psalms 112:10  The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked will vanish.

Also Death and hades are thrown on the lake of fire,  which also shows that death will be destroyed not continuing for all eternity. Revelation 20:14

Notice the smoke rises in Revelations.    Now how is that possible with an imperishable body. Also immortality is a gift, not a punishment.
 
And now he has made all of this plain to us by the appearing of Christ Jesus, our Savior. He broke the power of death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the Good News. 2 Timothy 1:10
Not death and immortality, the bad news as well ! ?


But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.  God will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Romans 2:5-8
In Daniel 12:2 some will awake to everlasting life  and some to everlasting shame and contempt . That could mean that they will be raised with a perishable body for judgement, which should never be underestimated, as if that's not enough, in coming face to face with God.  Definitely seems there will be suffering for those who continually  reject the Lord, in much the way the religious leaders rejected Him. They will suffer .Yet that surely means that in the end their suffering ends but it's shameful and sad that they rejected Him and His glory resulting in eternal death. That there time was served in shame in God's eyes and as the religious leaders they were full of pomp and importance in the world's eyes but now brought down low, to the dust.


For it only describes the saved as being resurrected, with an imperishable body, not the unsaved.  1 Corinthians 15:35-55
The everlasting shame in Daniel 12:2 ,could be to do, with either the judgement and eternal death, for  mortal man ; or it could be to do with losses, although the person themself is saved and has an imperishable body. 1 Corinthians 3:15   For example, Solomon  1 Kings 11:9-13

The finality of the unsaved was referred to as Gehenna by Jesus. It was a horrendous godless place in Israel, with  current conflicting views about it. Though nevertheless it  appears to illustrate a perpetual fire with smoke constantly rising, but it burns and  is completely  burnt up and destroyed.

Gehenna appears to be the lake of fire, where death and hades are destroyed.  Therefore it is read as  perpetral for all eternity.It is also read as the complete destruction of death. Coming to a complete end. A paradox.
 Therefore it could be concluded that it's perpetral within  Gods  infinite eternity, but has come to a complete and utter end for all mortality and mortals.  They cannot be suffering for it has all come to an end.

Therefore they will be like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears, like chaff swirling from a threshing floor, like smoke escaping through a window. Hosea 13:3

Man is like a breath; his days are like a passing shadow Psalm 144:4

 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Revelations 21:4

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 09:47:46 PM »

Ezekiel 28:18-19 strongly refutes the immortality and  imperishable body of the wicked, along with plenty of scriptures that reveal the total destruction and total end of the unsaved.

As said there are a few scriptures that may "appear" to show an endless torture for the wicked. Yet that can only be about the process of  their total destruction in metaphoric language. You see this, when you see them alongside the  multitude of scriptures, about annulation in the bible.

The illustrations in the scriptures,  all show a total destruction in the second death. It just cannot mean anything different. Any  existence after the first death does not disprove this, but suggests that the mortal spirit and soul can outlive the mortal body.
Genesis 6:3KJV

That's the time span between the death of the body, and the resurrection  . Most of the scriptures describe the spirits as being asleep but there are some too that suggest a consciousness. Eg. 1 Peter 3:18-20 1 Samuel 28:12-15
It could be that the spirit has a consciousness but cannot do much without the body but to sleep but has the capacity to wake up .

Yet, that  does not mean that their spirit and  soul is immortal. It doesn't mean that  the devils and demons are immortal, just because they live longer than flesh and blood. Everything apart from God is created and mortal. Spiritual beings live very much longer than flesh , as it very much seems.  The flesh can be killed easily, but the soul can only be killed by GOD.
 
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

"Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. "Ezekiel 18:4

Any living being whether of the flesh, or spiritual, in whatever realm they are in, are created by God and they have a beginning. To be immortal is to have no beginning and no end. Therefore God created "living beings "Genesis 2:7, not immortal beings. Immortality is a gift through the gospel, of Christ .John 3:16  2Timothy 1:10  1Corinthians 15:45
Only God the Father,  Son and Holy Spirit are immortal alone.
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. " Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Timothy 1:17

There are people who have immortality in their spirit, through the gift of JESUS the life giving Word and  Spirit.  That is the spiritual  treasure, inside  the clay pot. 2 Corinthians 4:7
I don't think that anyone is born immortal but can receive that through the gift of life, and then become  born again . That means we have a beginning, but have no end.  In the  gift we choose to unwrap. The gift of eternal life , through Jesus.

If any part of a person is immortal, than that is going to be the most prominent part of them, and over their mortal parts . Only humankind has been referred to as mortal. Job was one of the first biblical characters near the beginning of creation.  He divinely knew that the earth hang onto nothing in space,  in the ancient days and thousands of years, before gravity was discovered. Job 26:7 Job directly  referred to man as mortal. Job 4:17KJVJob 9:2NIVJob 25:4NIV and a great many other  scriptures show that in different ways.

Therefore it can be concluded that we are all mortal and only become immortal through Jesus. 
And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."1Corinthians15:45.

Yet there is such a widespread belief in the traditional churches that the spirit /soul of man is immortal and that immortality is for everyone, which in turn supports the eternity  of suffering doctrine.  That appears to be a misleading deception that has come into the church but it originates back from the garden of Edan.

Genesis 2:15-3:7-10
"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

The serpent introduced  pagan immortality here, through his lies and said " you shall not surely die. That you will be as gods , knowing good and evil."
Yet that was death itself and that lie has infiltrated in through religion and the church.

It infiltrated the church through greek philosophy and Plato, who influenced that the soul  is naturally immortal, without God. That is the same lie that the serpent told in the garden of Eden. That belief was not in the early church  and again I will mention how Paul said that only God has  immortality. 
 http://www.jewishnotgreek.com

Paul said "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." Romans 9:3   See also Exodus 32:32 Paul couldn't have possibly meant that he would be willing to be tortured for all eternity .For nearly everything I look at in the bible and in my walk shows me that to perish is to cease to exist, in body, spirit and soul. That God doesn't want anyone to perish but to come to eternal life.

Offline Christianna

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 961
Re: Why I don't believe suffering is for all eternity. [eternity]
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 02:01:38 PM »
It was said of how Paul was willing to be accursed on behalf of Israel and that must have been that he was willing to give up his gift of eternal life, on their behalf.  That Moses likewise also said, Exodus 32:32. They couldn't possibly have meant that they were willing to be eternally tortured forever. It is much more believable that they were willing to decease on their behalf,  than to be tormented for all eternity ,with no way out.  No one is going to be willing to do that.

I remember when I was taught about hell and it being a punishment of torture that endured for all eternity.  I just couldn't connect to it although connected to other teachings. When I read about Paul willing to be accursed on behalf of Israel, I couldn't believe that he would be willing to be tortured forever. Now Moses even said that God Could blot him out of the book of life, if it meant Israel was forgiven. That really does give credibility that eternal death is annulation.
I personally believe that in the end it's when the gospel is absolutely refused,  and that's why Jesus taught the finality in such a fiery way. That was directed to very proud people who couldn't careless about love and the poor around them. The poor and humble were the ones who turned to Jesus.  Only the religious leaders thought they were the elite and privileged and the poor and humble were the untouchables.

Jesus must have been showing them the outcome of their attitude. It was the reverse of what they were thinking. He was King of kings and Lord of Lords who wasn't recognised as God because He came in humility.  Therefore Jesus showed them that they who thought they were exalted would come down to nothing. Jesus showed them the consequence of their attitude and in rejecting the gospel.  He showed them their finality. If they refused Jesus then, with all His fulfilment of prophesy,  with all His Wisdom,  healings and miracles then what hope was there with that attitude,  when He wasn't there . They were shown all the tangible evidence possible and He showed them the outcome of that in the end, their total destruction.

Only it looks like those teachings have been misunderstood and have been misapplied through the Greek philosophy that infiltrated the church and is also in other religions.  Therefore it looks like the torment forever doctrine is religious teaching. Religion blinds us from seeing God. Religion needs to be taken out of the church, out of the Body of Christ.

Jesus needs to be understood. That it was  complete love that caused Him to lay down His life for us.

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Romans 5:8

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.1 Corinthians 7:23


He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5


He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.Romans 3:23


Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:6

Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Hebrews 2:8-9

Jesus died the sinners death.  "He tasted death for every man."

Jesus humbled Himself to experience what man experiences. He died in the substitutory place of the sinner.  He was the propitiation for our  sins.

Paying the price and dying the sinners death was not an eternity of torture. Yet He tasted death for everyone and was the propitiation for our sins.


Yet those who support the eternal torture doctrine claim that God is infinite, and that is why the debt of sin is infinite. Eventhough the sins committed may have only been a few years on earth.

They are not even the blink of an eye. God is a just God and a God of love. That is a disproportional judgement, by more than a long shot.

The supporters of this doctrine are not seeing that God humbles Himself for the benefit of man and they are portraying Him as selfcentred.

That is not as He is. He is kind to the ungrateful and loves His enemies.

Also if what the supporters of the cruel doctrine say is true then why did JESUS not pay the price by being tortured in eternity.

He tasted the sinners death and it was NOT an eternity of being tortured.

Jesus appeased the wrath of God in propitiation.  He paid the price in our place.

Now this leads onto another topic. This is because we are in a time now, that so many people are questioning why Jesus had to shed blood to appease God . They argue that blood should not have to be shed and that God should automatically forgive anyway.

These are questions I've asked myself if I'm really honest.
God is seen in the beauty of creation and His divine qualities are clear.  I cannot believe He created us to be the Headmaster to whip us in His room. That seems like a very narrow and religious way of seeing things.

I asked GOD about these questions. To think about my experiences and other people's experiences around us.
Some injustices we face are so painful that by simply saying sorry, they do no demonstrate how serious those injustices are.
That is how we feel by nature by somethings against us but if we love God then we will forgive and if we love other people we will ask God to show us why it happened, that will enhance the process of forgiveness.

Only we are in a world that doesn't understand the behaviour of others and they are not loving God and not forgiving each other. People are created in the image of God, however corrupted that is. They make moral judgements and feel that many things need to be punished.  They do this in however misguided or guided they are. Only they often do not see the faults and transgressions within themselves.

They put somethings in categories of wrong but not all the things that God sees and not all the things about themselves.

God is grieved by the sin of the world . We are in days where people are brutal towards each other and towards God.  He is completely misunderstood and completely falsely portrayed.  There is rebellion towards Him in this, and He and His people are persecuted.
God is not only grieved but is increasing getting more wrathful.

That is the serious nature of sin. By not shedding blood it is not demonstrating how really serious sin is. Only it is very serious.

Think of things wrong in the world.  Injustice, cruelty deceitful etc , saying sorry just doesn't demonstrate how bad they are.

We however are guided to forgive each other and to not ask for repayment or compensation.  Though can give it if we have wronged another person. Only the teaching is to not expect it.

It's in God's hands. He will bring justice on our behalf. If not now, then one day but I think that most things will be an understanding and knowing the intention of the heart. God  who is omnipresent,  omnipotent and omniscient is the one who sees the debt of our transgressions . That's because He understands all and knows all complications and intentions.  The debt is regarding the way in  we have grieved and angered Him and each other as well.  Only there is nothing we can do to pay that debt for our sins, as religion makes us believe. The wages of sin is death. Only Jesus has paid the debt for us, when we enable Him to be our Redeemer.
That's what love is. God paid the debt Himself, within the mystery of the Godhead.

That's how much God  loves us. He paid the price Himself both  demonstrating how transgressions are so serious, that it needs blood to be shed.Also in demonstrating how much He  loves us, by paying the price on our behalf. That really demonstrates that He  wants people to be receiving that forgiveness for their transgressions and to receive the gift of eternal life.



Articulate - share to calendar - viewable to guests - post an article today - be your own admin - lock your own topic - share with a friend - join the articulate group today - register @ https://www.1faith.co.uk/ and go to profile/membergroups/
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal