Author Topic: When are we accountable to God ?  (Read 2362 times)

Description: now or at Judgement ?

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TJ

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2015, 01:38:32 AM »
Indeed, I can as a man in the flesh provide an acceptable literal translation of a verse or verses of scripture from English to Spanish, but if God is not in it, how well have done? Is this kind of work likely to earn the following words for being good and faithful?

"Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord" Matt 25:21


Well even when we were born naturally to woman, we were given many gifts and before we began to serve God at all, did not God provide us with yet additional gifts? Not every person born started with exactly the same gifts, so even before he knew God, he could only do his best with what he already had. Not all were born women. Not all were born men. Not all were born with the ability to write a Theory of Relativity. Etcetera!

In the parable of the talents, we see, of course, that those who properly used what they were given were given more.

In the case of the rich man perhaps he did not yet have the final necessary ingredient for his salvation. He failed his final test. Each of us has an allotted period of time to work (while it is day), and we must work until the end of our course. A man can do wonderful works for God and then fail in the final hour. See the unnamed prophet out of Judah in I Kings 13.



Well you know ! I posted these replies to see the response and they are not what I actually believe - naughty me  :D

I actually beleive God will pour out abundantly upon those who use little - hence the parable of the talents

Great answers Amadues

Awaiting lots more



Its not just fruitful words .Its putting them into action thats taken into account. Being doers of the word. What are words without true love. Do Gods people stand out as different from the rest. To show they are disciples.
God knows.


Ive registered my ipad tablet as lost.  Think I left it on the bus.  ;)

Those woodingdean buses  :police:

I really hope you recover it Primrose or can afford to buy a new one [let me know how you overcome this]



LIFE AFTER DEATH


The picture/[wiki]parable[/wiki] of Lazarus and the rich man paints a simple picture and really illustrates what you are saying @Primrose

Here in the gospel of Luke Only we see the parable truely painting a picture as the Jewish community would recognize at that time of = A beggar and a rich man - here in the bosom of [wiki]Abraham[/wiki] [said to be] the upper compartment of hades...

Here Abraham [ a wealthy man of the times ]  being the Father of a multitude as numerous as the stars in the sky is pictured with a beggar, this beggar being fathered and overseen by  father Abraham in what was called "[wiki]Abraham's bosom[/wiki]" although obviously Abraham was among multitudes and this compartment "said to be empty now after the resurrection" must still be used unless we all see Christ straight affer death [as the thief on the Cross - NOT  Read onnnnn

Here the beggar never having said "the sinners prayer" or thumped his chest as a pharisee - was with Abraham while the rich man lay in torment in the lower parts of hades.

Here the rich man is accountable to the beggar ?

What a parable/picture ? and it exemplifies how one day we will be with the Lord and being alongside people we never thought we would see and "those we thought we would meet maybe may be missing ?"

Hold this alongside the parable of the prodigal son and see how the older son is there but not really joining in the festivities ?

Now also to add to this consider the thief on the Cross ? in  " Luke 23:43; Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

No Jesus did not say that - He said ""Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Notice the big difference here - the comma moves and that is the correct  translation - deceiving ....isn't it ?

Yes Abraham a type of .....Genesis 22:17 correlate to   Romans 8:29

Indeed time is of no relevance outside of time - we will be like those asleep [another metaphor] so as to wake up in Christ - as if there was no time ....in a way and type of ......all of us In Christ will be as the thief on the Cross .



Offline Rose Anna

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2015, 08:05:41 AM »
@ TJs   :D  this forum is clear for mobiles.  I will be getting a new better  tablet today, where more computer art can be done. Enables more fuller answers to be given as well. Thanks for your concern. Just dont know how I could be so silly as to leave my other tablet on the bus.


Interesting example s you gave in Luke.

TJ

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2015, 01:27:30 PM »
Quote
A man can do wonderful works for God and then fail in the final hour. See the unnamed prophet out of Judah in I Kings 13.


Ahh @Amadeus :D you found a scriptire where a prophet seems to fall at the end ? it seems to be a paradoxical event
compared to the thief on the Cross




Great @Primrose ah that is really good  :D - you never know it might turn up



Yes as far as I know the original greek manuscripts had no punctuation and was written from right to left....the only
type of punctuation then was something like ! between to end a paragraphs/songs/psalms.

That makes a huge difference to the way we might read a lot of scripture...for example - the thief on the Cross actually
said  "when you come in your kingdom"

Now does this really make any difference to the average Christian ? no not really because as I suggested regarding just
this one verse of the thief on the Cross - Jesus said something like "I tell you the truth today you will be with me
in [wiki]paradise[/wiki]!

Its not really that significant until you realise that Jesus going straight to paradise [eden - garden to the Jews]
is very important if you are a [wiki]Jehovah Witness[/wiki] or of other belief systems....

This small comma inserted to make  grammatical sense of verses in modern day language [english) makes a huge difference
to therse religions ?

After all these  belief systems would collapse like a pack of cards if the thief /Jesus did not go straight to paradise on that day...



But going back to the thief on the Cross - Jesus could well have been saying "today the day now when people are spitting at me and hurling abuse.....  I tell you the truth today, you WILL be in paradise  [now remember[wiki] Father Abraham[/wiki]] this is Abrahams bosom the place where Jesus went to preach the good news


TJ

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2015, 01:33:44 PM »
What was the beggar doing there ?

I would suggest he did not turn in hades but that God knew His heart - hence the separation was already done [By God]

Offline Rose Anna

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2015, 07:15:16 PM »
As you said @Rachael  and TJ we all think a different way and that's how God brings all angles into it.
The contributions on the forum are opening up new things as well.

@TJs lol thats your sense of humour and how you can get people to think.  I must admit I felt like I didn't know how to answer how a soul can repent. I was fast asleep, then out of the blue woke up. It just came to me that duringJesus's ministry time there were people who received forgiveness, in very simple ways. Just by touching the hem of His garment.

So I'm just putting my thoughts down .They could be right but not necessarily so please excuse any waffling.
Its been said that Jesus taught in parables. They had vital teachings in them, where" I believe " the traditional church has misapplied them.
Through placing the character of man, onto the character of God. No wonder so many people feel rejected by God.

 In the parable of the sower, the devil is the thief who steals the seed  straight away, and is out to destroy. Yet Jesus said He came to bring life to the full.

TJ, I so agree with the points you make about what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is about. The jewish community had a division, between the rich and poor. The religious leaders were thinking that they had a privileged place. They would not receive Jesus in humility. Yet they were esteemed in their own self  righteousness. Although Jesus  had to give them stern teachings about this. For what did it profit them in the temporary measure, in comparison to their loss in eternity.

Jesus is a two edged sword, which swings from one direction, to the opposite direction.

Jesus taught that the way to life is narrow and  to be sure of  their election because He will say " I never knew you." That they will be in darkness, and wailing and grinding their teeth.
Thats when they don't go to the gate, who is Jesus.  Yet try other means , by climbing over through their own religion of self righteousness, or any other means. Yet not by Jesus who takes our sin, in exchange of Himself and His fruit.

By what Jesus said, they were abusing the poor and as if they thought that was their god given right.A bit like how the outcasts  are treated in the caste system.
These religious leaders thought they were in a privileged place. Yet they completely misrepresented God.

Then here comes Jesus like one of their outcasts of society,telling them thats not the way and spoke of  the final outcome, of their way. For their god is the devil.Thats part of why Jesus told them outright that the devil was their father and was very severe, in describing their final outcome.

Only I believe this has been misunderstood, by the traditional church.
That the points Jesus were making were not understood and that other things were looked at alternatively. That  the image of man has been placed onto the image of God, I think and people feel so rejected by it. Thats the hurting side of it. The devil who steals straight away.

That part of the teachings Jesus gave were because God was completely misrepresented and misapplied. Now it seems that those teachings in themself  are used to misrepresent God again, by the religious later.

It makes me think of Hosea 11:2 "the more they were called, the more they went away."
How misunderstood is God.

He has to emphasis that we don't receive forgiveness and salvation, through our own efforts. That everything about us, must be laid  onto Him and its what He has done for us.

These teachings were for the jewish divide between the esteemed and humble.Thats telling me what the chasm is about, as Jesus was showing the proud that it was the opposite of what they thought. They had to be humbled.

The chasm showed also the divide between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan.It was impossible to pass through, as He taught the rich man, enquiring about eternal life. Nothing they could do, to get there and pass that chasm.
Only whats impossible for man, is possible for God.

So I get this feeling, that the points of the parable of the rich man and lazarus has been
 misapplied. Especially as it looks like Jesus can rescue after the grave. That includes those who were not saved, represented by the people at the time of Noah.

As said Jesus is a two edged sword.
On one hand salvation looks difficult and on the other hand easy.

Impossible when people prioritise the religion of themselves and so He has to probe them to realise thats not the way. For He Himself is the way.

Yet the two edged sword swings the other way, for the humble who know their own failings and want to be right with Him.They only have to look to Him by very simple means, to receive forgiveness and salvation.

The traditional church has made God look so harsh and relentless.
As if you have had your chance, and it doesn't matter if you missed it, you've blown it and in the most dreadful way possible. Doesn't count if some have had more exposure to the power of the gospel than others,you've blown it. Doesn't matter that you felt so discouraged by the church and the church history, you've blown it. For an eternity of torment.
Doesn't matter that others felt encouraged by the church and its history and those who saw the gospel in power, you've blown it, if you haven't.
Only I dont think its like that.

Some need more exposure to the gospel than others. As Jesus said to Thomas" blessed are you who don't see and believe." The people of Sodom would have repented in sackcloth and ashes, if they had seen what some had seen. Therefore I feel God can deliver after the grave.
Its a two edged sword as well,the other point is God has made Himself known in creation.Only God strives also with flesh and blood, which is the enemy and blinding   barrier of God.Genesis 6:3
Theres no denying  that the gospel should be treated as urgent and in the hope it is received before the grave.
This is more of a search for how it works, whether its partly or fully right and wrong.

Offline Rose Anna

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2015, 10:15:33 PM »
I think that some of the parables have been misunderstood and some of the metaphoric language as been misunderstood as  well.

Theres no denying the sternness of Jesus . Yet surely that was because He was stern with the hypocrisy and in self righteousness.

Only the devil steals the truth away and can makes us feel rejected.

Only He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. He is not rejecting, about our honesty and humility . Thats a lie.

Jesus did speak about the finality,  and the road to destruction is by using other means.  Thats not going through the door which is Himself. Its what He has done for us and not what we do.Some reject His aroma of life. They are therefore the aroma of death and I'm not denying that.

Only what I question is the finality of the death. As the church traditional teaching is that death is "sustained" for all eternity. Yet I can only see death as being "swallowed" up by eternity.

Many ,many christians question the finality but many also stand by the traditional teachings of christiandom.

I was disturbed by the belief that everyone is resurrected with an imperishable body. That some go onto eternal bliss, while others go onto eternal torment.

They also believe that it is a literal fire as well. It smells very  pagan to me. It must be metaphoric language. Thats because it seems we were in a fire anyway and are sticks snatched out of the fire now, when coming out of the darkness and coming into the light of Christ. Jude 1:23  Zechariah 3:2

Also perish and the anology for it, is throughout the bible.
It seems that the metaphoric language is taken as literal and the direct language in perish is redefined.
I kept on thinking about a plant destroyed by its roots and what it represents. It represents to perish. The roots represent the soul.

Then saw in Jude 1:12 about fruitless trees in the autumn, twice dead and uprooted. Fits second death. Autumn the season before eternity. Late in the last days before the winter. Winter  and as  death is swallowed up and destroyed by eternity ?
Then I saw in Job 14:7-8 For there is hope for a tree if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease. Though its root grows old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil.

Job 14:9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.

In that I can see the analogy of a plant being twice dead, when its roots die. Twice dead also second death.

Only the scent of water v9 . The aroma of life. Jesus the living water can prevent a second death. He can turn ashes to beauty.

The words of John the baptist and the parable of the wheat and weeds fit the metaphoric language of a plant twice dead. Matthew 3:12 Matthew 13:30

The route to death ,looks like suffering but how can that be for all eternity, if a weed is destroyed by its roots.
Just some more waffling thoughts, in metaphoric language. In pregnancy and birth as already mentioned.

Jonah in the belly. Jeremiah representing how God speaks to the unborn child both before physical and spiritual birth. Is it the same ,in before and after the grave.?
Jesus descended  and was resurrected. This temporary age swallowed up by eternity.

God uses pregnancy as the metaphoric description, of this age and before it reaches eternity.
The signs of the end of pregnancy are  the early contractions. The earthquakes like early labour. Only the years can be spaced out to us and even one tremor to another can be like historical days to us but to God a thousand years and a day are the same.

At the end of the age, it will  go into full labour, before it gives birth to eternity. Thats the tribulation.  There will be a strange thing on the earth. Men and women will be fainting with terror and as if they are in labour. Isaiah 13:8 1 Thessalonians 5:3  Somewhere  described as men looking like they are in labour.


That makes me think of the metaphoric language and the male and female terms.  I dont quite know how all this connects. Except that God doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.

Edit later

Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob?s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.? Jeremiah  30:3-7

Getting used to this new tablet. Working solidly for the next few days at work.
  steer

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2017, 01:25:09 AM »
mmm


Offline Tes Johnson

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2017, 02:56:16 AM »
Ephesians 2:6 ...   And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In our day - but in His day - RE: today if you hear His voice - enter ...


I quote myself in -
Well you know ! I posted these replies to see the response and they are not what I actually believe - naughty me  :D

I actually beleive God will pour out abundantly upon those who use little - hence the parable of the talents

Great answers Amadues

Awaiting lots more



Those woodingdean buses  :police:

I really hope you recover it Primrose or can afford to buy a new one [let me know how you overcome this]



LIFE AFTER DEATH


The picture/[wiki]parable[/wiki] of Lazarus and the rich man paints a simple picture and really illustrates what you are saying @Primrose

Here in the gospel of Luke Only we see the parable truely painting a picture as the Jewish community would recognize at that time of = A beggar and a rich man - here in the bosom of [wiki]Abraham[/wiki] [said to be] the upper compartment of hades...

Here Abraham [ a wealthy man of the times ]  being the Father of a multitude as numerous as the stars in the sky is pictured with a beggar, this beggar being fathered and overseen by  father Abraham in what was called "[wiki]Abraham's bosom[/wiki]" although obviously Abraham was among multitudes and this compartment "said to be empty now after the resurrection" must still be used unless we all see Christ straight affer death [as the thief on the Cross - NOT  Read onnnnn

Here the beggar never having said "the sinners prayer" or thumped his chest as a pharisee - was with Abraham while the rich man lay in torment in the lower parts of hades.

Here the rich man is accountable to the beggar ?

What a parable/picture ? and it exemplifies how one day we will be with the Lord and being alongside people we never thought we would see and "those we thought we would meet maybe may be missing ?"

Hold this alongside the parable of the prodigal son and see how the older son is there but not really joining in the festivities ?

Now also to add to this consider the thief on the Cross ? in  " Luke 23:43; Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

No Jesus did not say that - He said ""Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Notice the big difference here - the comma moves and that is the correct  translation - deceiving ....isn't it ?

Yes Abraham a type of .....Genesis 22:17 correlate to   Romans 8:29

Indeed time is of no relevance outside of time - we will be like those asleep [another metaphor] so as to wake up in Christ - as if there was no time ....in a way and type of ......all of us In Christ will be as the thief on the Cross .






Now today we are seated with Christ in Ephesians 2:6 ...   And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,



I present an alternative argument... as we are no longer accountable - but move out of judgement and into judgement of reward and loss.

As if we are already seated with Christ - how can there be an uncertainty - in our day - today -  as we are seated with Him  ...