Author Topic: When are we accountable to God ?  (Read 2363 times)

Description: now or at Judgement ?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TJ

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2015, 01:24:16 PM »
Yes its a great directional post Primrose and quite apt

I'm not going to try to take away what you believe and insult by abusing what you have grown to believe

I completely get what you are saying and in a way we might suggest that "If someone's name is written in the Lambs book of life  -before time- yet something happens to shorten their life suddenly and God's purposes are not fulfilled in them. There's no reason why either death or life can separate them from God....

If the person is In the "Lambs book of Life" it cannot be altered or erased, whether the person is alive or dead and having been dead for a thousand years makes no difference, they as "soul" can find resurrection unto life.

Death cannot separate us and there is no sting in death - nothing can hold Him down.

So yes you are correct  :D in that - after death a soul can find life [ although scripture is limited about things apart from this life we are in now]

but what I am pointing out is that having been "written of before time" whether we have been born or unborn - lived or died - nothing can reverse this "name written in God's book as the days have already been written of" you might even extend this to "afterlife"

We are bounding outside of scriptural parameters here and so we can only use existing written scripture for the purposes of this life we are in now

However there is no reason why life or death can stop the resurrection of those "written of" or keep them / separate from the Tree of Life

Once "born Again" you cannot be "unborn" after death

Interesting subject  :D

Also brings to question those "unborn" and  dead



I redirect to this question ..............................

As God is our Father - He is responsible/accountable  to us !

Is this where the Father metaphor/analogy stops ?

Or do you think it goes on after life/death ?




The following users thanked this post: Rose Anna

Serenity

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2015, 06:02:44 PM »
I would say once a father always a father, no matter how good or bad you are at that.  So does death change that relationship? as this life is about relationship with the Father.  After death you just 'meet' that Father.  If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow...is He the same outside of anything restrained by limitations?

Online francis drake

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2015, 06:57:15 PM »
I would say once a father always a father, no matter how good or bad you are at that.  So does death change that relationship? as this life is about relationship with the Father.  After death you just 'meet' that Father.  If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow...is He the same outside of anything restrained by limitations?

Exactly, once a son, always a son. (or daughter!)
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Amadeus

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2015, 07:19:44 PM »
Well @Amadeus    It Really gets me enthusiastic when others "think out of the box"

[Not that my view is representative of God's]

But it's certainly opened up a new avenue of approach that I've never considered - I love the "coming from different angles" [its something that God does]



One scripture I would like to throw forward is - Concerning

THE RESURRECTION TO DAMNATION

In this you might consider the immortal soul [without spirit]

Is the soul immortal in every case or only for those who make it with and in Him to the end of their course?

?Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.? Ezek 18:4

Immortality is made available to men:

?But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:? II Tim 1:10

If Jesus Christ never appears to us, then it would seem that we have neither Life nor Immortality, or??


Quote
What would you make of =

John 5:29; and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Or KJ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,  unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is a difficult one. I have long ago heard a clarification, but won?t lie by saying it is so clear to me. What I wrote on this quite a while back follows: 

Quote
Amadeus old post: I understand where you are coming from on this judgment of the wicked [John 5:29 & Acts 24:15], but what is the point of bringing people back when they have already condemned themselves and thereby also judged themselves by His Word. Their punishment is rendered in this natural life and/or by them having no future at all after this natural life is done.

And if those who died in their sins actually have a resurrection after they have died naturally, who or what is it that resurrects them since Jesus is the resurrection?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18

Although Jesus is The Resurrection, His purpose is not to condemn anyone. They are "condemned already" and remain so unless He saves them.

Perhaps the answer lies in the difference between those who have a resurrection and those who have a 'better resurrection?

"Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" Heb 11:35

The question then would be: 'better' than what?

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

The 'virgins' are without number, but His Dove, His undefiled is but one.

They are 'virgins' in that that came to Christ without having been married to someone else and without having commited fornication outside of marriage, yet they are not 'undefiled'

Remember now the parable of the ten virgins? Five were foolish who took their lamps, but without oil. They lived a very good life in God's eyes, but something was lacking. When the Bridegroom came,  they were not ready and the door was shut. They defiled themselves by not keeping a continuous prepared watch for Him.

This is where I go off on my own belief in there being a difference between the Church or Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ. All of the ten virgins are part of the Body, but only the five wise virgins are part of the Bride.

The foolish ones will make it to the wedding feast as guests, but not as the Bride.

After the Bridegroom comes and takes away His Bride then guests are gathered for the wedding:

"So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests." Matt 22:10

The guests include the queens, concubines and defiled virgins.

Some of them after arriving are found unfit even for the wedding feast:

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

The judgment of the 'unjust' spoken of in acts 24:15 would be those that make to the wedding feast but do not have a  [proper] wedding garment.

Quote
TJ:  In this God is taking account of life's lived before the eternal condition/state is judged - so in this we switch from "People being accountable" TO "God taking all things into account"

What would "Resurrection of damnation mean ?"

There would be no resurrection of any kind for those who were never in Christ [always unbelievers]. The resurrection of damnation would, I believe, be for those who were in Christ, but failed to do all necessary to even be part of the Body of Christ at the end of their course (road).

Offline Amadeus

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2015, 08:09:35 PM »
I love the coming out of the box and seeking the truth together.  That's what it is.
That's how many of us found the truth in Jesus, and dare I say that beforehand there were probably lots of mistakes in our thinking. Still afterwards, but coming more and more into the light.

Outside of the basic truths in Christ,I was taught many things by the church that I've questioned.

Early on I did not seriously question perhaps because I had insufficient basic knowledge to raise a serious question.

Quote
Only gone along to be on safe ground , so to speak

When something did pop up within myself, I usually went along that same seeming safe road of keeping my mouth shut. Sometimes it may have been right, but sometimes it was most certainly wrong. When it comes to correct timing, I always consider Ecclesiastes chapter 3 and "hearing" the Master's voice. The problem is that His voice is not the only one I have hear. Jesus says:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

Then comes the question, "am I one of his sheep?" If I am not, is it possible to become one of his sheep? If so, how does one become one of his sheep?


Quote
It is accepted in christiandom that when we physically die that we are without hope of being saved, beyond the grave.

This is commonly accepted, but..?

Quote
Really though I think we need to look upon it as essential for others to be saved before they physically die.

Yes, no matter what I might "believe" remembering that is only "belief", we should not provide it as a definite answer to someone else. Even something that God really has shown to me as definite will not necessarily be accepted by even another believer just because I say it is so.

Quote
Only  the description of the chasm in the parablee of the rich man and lazereth, and appointed to live once and then the judgement does make it seem that the church teaching is correct.

When I look at Lazarus and the rich man I consider this verse carefully:

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matt 13:34

For me the entire Bible is parable consisting of parables. The truth of the parables is available but only through the Holy Ghost. If the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, what does it mean according to the Holy Ghost in me? Must it be a literal explanation or description of the situation after the dirt was thrown over the faces of those two men?


Quote
Yet there are scriptures of appearing to show that people are capable of being saved beyond the grave too. As mentioned. 1 Peter 3:18-20  just a few scriptures later 1 Peter 4:5-6  As I said I can  see how Jesus is the gate way from death to life , both before and after the grave. Not saying I'm right or wrong but seeking the truth.

Consider carefully when it was that Jesus preached to the dead in scripture. Since every person was dead in sin before Jesus made Life a possibility, was not every person he spoke to dead? Was not every person he spoke to still in prison [the bondage of their sins and their sinful ways]?


Quote
John 5:25kjv Verily verily I say unto you the hour is coming , and now is , when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they shall live. Dead before or after grave, or both?
John 5:28kjv Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming , in which all that are in the grave shall hear His voice.
John  5:29kjv And shall come forth ; they that have done good, unto the resurrection  of life and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

During his earthly ministry (about 3? years) were not even his closest followers (the 12) deaf to much of what Jesus was saying? What happened on that day of Pentecost about 2000 years ago (Acts chapter 2) did make a difference to all of them as well as to you and me. But some of the dead who heard still failed to do the "good" that they then knew to do.


Quote
Daniel 12:2kjv And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Everlasting contempt means simply that those who are aware (the Living) will hold evil works and those who only work evil in contempt as would God. I have in my early natural life (and more recently as well) done some things for which I have been forgiven by God, but those things are still contemptible even though the things themselves are in the past and forgiven by God. They remain contemptible.


Quote
Ezekiel 16:52-54kjv

 52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.

Does seem to be about eternal damnation because Jesus said:

 Luke 10:12 Jesus said :
"But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city."

Eternal damnation does not necessarily equal eternal torment, does it? When is, or was, "that day" for Sodom? What is time to God? What is time to man when this verse is not speaking of something in our future?

"...that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:6


Quote
Sodom and Gommorah the example of the ungodly  2 Peter 2:6 
Yet a future for Sodom but no mention of Gommorah. 

Only God is immortal.  1 Timothy 1:17

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Timothy 1:10

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life. Romans 2:7

Amen! I should have read your post before I posted my previous post.

The following users thanked this post: Rose Anna

Offline Rose Anna

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2015, 08:38:25 PM »
T'J's

I redirect to this question ..............................

As God is our Father - He is responsible/accountable  to us !

Is this where the Father metaphor/analogy stops.

[/quote]




Its so interesting that everyone has a different angle as you said and a different expression. It's intriguing to think about the book of life. I don't think about the book of life. Yet more on how much God knows. Knowing everything thousands of years in advance and knowing before the creation of the world. Knowing you and knowing me.

Guess that's what the accountability is about the book of life and what He knows. It doesn't need to be negative. There's lots about accountability, that is about everything coming to light. That's what man avoids for their deeds are exposed, in the eyes of truth.

 Therefore whatever all of us have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what all of us have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops. By our words we will be acquitted or guilty. He will judge the intentions of the heart. This is all on what He knows that others don't.

Judge and we will be judged same measure.  I often think that if it doesn't occur now, then it will one day. Unless we confess to God and put things right, in the way God sees right, as far as possible.To ask another for forgiveness but then if they don't accept, there's no more to do. We are also responsible to forgive others because He forgave us. Yet that doesn't mean we should always trust.

Most people think how dreadful to be accountable to God and I'm not denying that.  That also includes  those who know Him as their Father. Though it doesn't need to be all dreadful because if we are the clay in His hands,  then we can be the person He wants us to be. Just admitting everything honestly to Him because we cannot hide from Him. He knows everything. Like Jesus said to the tax collector that he was justified because he asked for mercy.

There is a freedom in accountability as well because it's God understanding everything about you. Sometimes there's this sense that others didn't know that situation, and they don't know or understand me . There's this realisation in this that God is slow to anger and compassionate.  Sometimes we think we have received an injustice and that's how it really looks and seems. We can be so angry if it's unfair. Only if you are still to God, He can speak into your spirit that it wasn't the case. It's your perception, or wasn't the other person's intention or it was a complication etc. Then you realise that He is so so completely  different to human nature.

No one on this earth can exercise true justice without God because He looks at true intentions.  He looks at the heart and all complications.  If ever you feel that the whole world doesn't believe you then you have someone who does and will reveal all truth. Then if ever there was a time you were so completely misunderstood, then it will be  completely understood.
Only knowing God knows you anyway, when others don't, sets you free more and more each day.
I don't believe it's going to be all " bang, bang, bang, thunder lightning, aha I got it right and you got it wrong all along . "Just compassionate understanding. Probably lots of  laughter as well.

I didn't think of God our Father being accountable to us.  Only that's more reason to think of it all in a different way. That's what makes it interesting that the approaches are so different as I said. Food for thought. That's positive if we respond positively to God our Father.  Negative if we don't respond. It made me think of Hosea 11:1-4 It's very moving but makes me think of the Fathers accountability. What people don't realise what He does for them.

Hosea 11:1-4NIV edited later. Not 4 v14
When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.

TJ

  • Guest
Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2015, 01:02:26 AM »
Yes firstly @Amadeus in reply

Quote /
Quote
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth,
 it shall die.? Ezekiel 18:4
  /unquote

Never saw it in that way before perhaps because I read the NIV - re : For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.


These two translations can be interpreted quite differently  !

Now look at this in the New Living Translation

For all people are mine tojudge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die

And so here sins can mean death in life - to some - what does the this actually mean ?

Here the believer still sins but God see's Jesus



Second reply to @Amadeus

Quote
The resurrection of damnation would, I believe, be for those who were in Christ, but failed to do all necessary to even
be part of the Body of Christ at the end of their course (road).

Although this evaluation seems logical - what can we do to qualify ?  surely the work was done by Christ and we simply need to turn around and begin living in Him?



Reply to @Primrose

Again the same question - what can a "person" male /female do after death that they could not do before death to save themselves ?

I totally agree the a "soul"[soul = corrupted apart from spirit and body] can find God -  but I must ask can a soul in hades repent ?

If the answer - is yes - then their names were written in the Lambs book of Life before creation  ....



second reply to @Primrose

What version or translation is that ?

Mine gives me

"Hosea 4:14 ; I will not punish your daughters when they turn to prostitution, nor your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery, because the men themselves consort with harlots and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes-- a people without understanding will come to ruin!

Offline Rose Anna

Re: When are we accountable to God ?
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2015, 07:38:14 AM »
Yes firstly @Amadeus in reply

Quote /   /unquote

Never saw it in that way before perhaps because I read the NIV - re : For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.


These two translations can be interpreted quite differently  !

Now look at this in the New Living Translation

For all people are mine tojudge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die

And so here sins can mean death in life - to some - what does the this actually mean ?

Here the believer still sins but God see's Jesus



Second reply to @Amadeus

Although this evaluation seems logical - what can we do to qualify ?  surely the work was done by Christ and we simply need to turn around and begin living in Him?


Thank you Amadus for your imput. Great discussion.

Reply to @Primrose

Again the same question - what can a "person" male /female do after death that they could not do before death to save themselves ?

I totally agree the a "soul"[soul = corrupted apart from spirit and body] can find God -  but I must ask can a soul in hades repent ?

If the answer - is yes - then their names were written in the Lambs book of Life before creation  ...


I cannot say a clear cut yes or no because this has been a search for the truth but as the scriptures appear to show sleeping and waking to consciousness I would have thought so, as Saul summoned up Samuel from the dead.Only Samuel was probably in a different compartment.  I still would have thought so in wherever in hades but can't say definitely.
Psalm 139:8NIV   Psalm 139:8ESV Psalm 139:8KJV  God is in the depths, sheol, hell.  He knows the souls thoughts and how the soul reacts . That's beyond our comprehension and as said can't say for sure but would have thought so.

Who can deliver his soul from sheol?  Psalm 89:48

Psalm 139
Psalm 139: 1-4 Psalm 139:23-24     

Based on how God knows us. As you said TJ who is in the book of life.  As Jesus said Sodom would have repented with sackcloth and ashes in seeing all the things certain city's rejected. Only Psalm 139 shows how God knows us inside out to every detail. Also in the book of life as you said. That's why Jesus KNEW that Sodom would have repented in sackcloth and ashes had she seen what the citys had seen. Yet those cities  still rejected Him.

I think you mentioned  TJ  that nothing can separate us from the love of God.
"Neither death "nor life,  nor angels nor rulers,  nor things present nor things to come , nor powers,  nor height "nor depth" , nor anything else in all creation,  will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  Romans 8:38-39




What version or translation is that ?

Mine gives me

"Hosea 4:14 ; I will not punish your daughters when they turn to prostitution, nor your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery, because the men themselves consort with harlots and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes-- a people without understanding will come to ruin!


I got it online a clear version in translation. Think it was the NIV. Only it was Hosea 11:1-4 not 4: 14   my mistake .