Author Topic: Did Christ go to Hell ?  (Read 2693 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2015, 01:46:35 PM »

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Hi Frances Drake
The first thing I notice about the story of Saul and the witch of Endor  is Saul never actually saw him he asked the witch to describe him the second thing I notice is he cane up from the ground not down from heaven he came up from the grave and told Saul he and his sons would join him there the next day which of course they did.
as for the thief as you may well know it depends on the comer if it comes before or after the word today if after the verse has an entirely different meaning and as there was no punctuation in the original language its hard to know whats right.
But it makes little difference as he fell asleep on the cross he will have no consciousness till he wakes up in paradise for him it will be instantaneous for him it will be today.
As for Paul's vision of the third heaven not to sure it has any relevance our Lord gave him a glimpse of heaven but he did not stay there he returned to earth and continued his mission until he died in Rome or as I like to put he went for a well earned rest after a very hard life.

Love and Peace
Dave     

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2015, 02:26:13 PM »
Hi Jesus4me
Quote
you said
 Mankind is a spirit "Pneuma", who has a soul, "Psuche", and lives in a body, "Soma".  at death the body goes to the grave, "Mnemeion" and the spirit/soul either go to hell, "Hades" or heaven. See Lk 16: 22==25. 2 Cor 5: 1--8. Philippians 1: 23. Rev 6: 9. Rev 7: 9--15.
The resurrection means the bodily resurrection into a body fit for either the lake of fire or heaven.
 

Thanks for the language lesson but I don't think it has much relevance I done a search  of the bible and found there are only four times the the words
spirit of man are used which are.

Pro_20:27  The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Ecc_3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Zec_12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
1Co_2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I thought there would be more and even these one could make a case for the holy spirit the spirit of our Lord.

Quote
You Said
 Lk 16 isn't a parable, Even if it was, A parable is a, Discourse that proves a Spiritual truth, So either way, Lk 16 is a fact.   
It is a parable In the parables before this one our Lord start's with these words    "There was a certain" and he does this with the rich man and the poor man. if the story is factual how would you explain the term Abraham's bosom on Abraham's side they don't appear anywhere in the old testament It's something made up by the Pharisees so how can it be factual and Jesus was jest pointing out how wrong there traditions where. 
So if lk 16 is a fact everything in it must be a fact.

The Lake of fire is not real fire but our God is a consuming fire.

Love and Peace
Dave   


Offline Jesus4me

Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2015, 04:20:52 PM »
Hi Jesus4me
Thanks for the language lesson but I don't think it has much relevance I done a search  of the bible and found there are only four times the the words
spirit of man are used which are.

Pro_20:27  The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Ecc_3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Zec_12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
1Co_2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I thought there would be more and even these one could make a case for the holy spirit the spirit of our Lord.
It is a parable In the parables before this one our Lord start's with these words    "There was a certain" and he does this with the rich man and the poor man. if the story is factual how would you explain the term Abraham's bosom on Abraham's side they don't appear anywhere in the old testament It's something made up by the Pharisees so how can it be factual and Jesus was jest pointing out how wrong there traditions where. 
So if lk 16 is a fact everything in it must be a fact.

The Lake of fire is not real fire but our God is a consuming fire.

Love and Peace
Dave   


[1] What about 1 Thess 5: 23. Mankind is a Spirit, "Pneuma"  who has a soul, "Psuche",  and lives in a body, "Soma".
Jesus is the perfect example. His body "Soma" was in the tomb, the grave,"Mnemeion" Matt 27: 57-60,  His souls, "Psuche" was in hell, "Hades". Acts 2: 27.
And He commended His Spirit, "Pneuma" to God, entrusting that God would make Him alive in His Spirit. Lk 23: 46.

Three different Greek words, three different parts of man.

[2]When Jesus said, "There's a certain", That means there was those people.
There are three compartments in the underworld, Abraham's bosom, The place of the departed righteous, Lk 16: 22. Jesus went there to preach the gospel, 1 Pet 4: 6.
Then there is, Hades, the place of the departed un-righteous, Lk 16: 23--25.
Then there is, "Tartarus", The place of the fallen angels, 1 Pet 3: 19 Jude 6. Jesus went there to proclaim His victory. 1 Pet 3: 19. 
Lk 16: 19--25, isn't a made up story, it's a Biblical fact.

[3]The lake of fire, Is for the devil, demons and all those who are in hell, they will be judged at the great white thrown judgment,
then cast into the lake of fire, "Genna". Rev 20: 10--15.

Only Jesus uses "Genna, or Gehenna" for Hell, and He mentions the body and soul going there, the body after it has been resurrected, met with it's spirit/doul, judged and cast into the lake.  Whereas only the soul is mentioned in hell, Hades. 
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Offline Seeker

Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2015, 08:55:54 AM »
I've been following this thread and have noticed some disagreement over whether people sleep when they die or not.

Well yesterday I came across the below verses 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The below verses mention '...sleep in death,...' and those '...who have fallen asleep in him.' (Fallen asleep in him - Jesus?). I am not sure I fully understand the below verse, but it does mention sleep in death and people who have fallen asleep.

'13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.'

Offline Jesus4me

Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2015, 09:43:35 AM »
I've been following this thread and have noticed some disagreement over whether people sleep when they die or not.

Well yesterday I came across the below verses 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The below verses mention '...sleep in death,...' and those '...who have fallen asleep in him.' (Fallen asleep in him - Jesus?). I am not sure I fully understand the below verse, but it does mention sleep in death and people who have fallen asleep.

'13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.'


Please note v14, Those who are asleep, [Their bodies, not their Spirit & soul], God will bring with Him, Their souls are in heaven, and God will bring them to join their new bodies.  How can they be in the grave and in heaven at the same time?, Mankind is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body, and at death, only they body dies, [Sleeps], Their spirit & soul live on, as I have shown in other posts.
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Offline davetaff

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Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2015, 02:19:36 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Seeker on Today at 08:55:54 AM
I've been following this thread and have noticed some disagreement over whether people sleep when they die or not.

Well yesterday I came across the below verses 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The below verses mention '...sleep in death,...' and those '...who have fallen asleep in him.' (Fallen asleep in him - Jesus?). I am not sure I fully understand the below verse, but it does mention sleep in death and people who have fallen asleep.

'13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.'


Please note v14, Those who are asleep, [Their bodies, not their Spirit & soul], God will bring with Him, Their souls are in heaven, and God will bring them to join their new bodies.  How can they be in the grave and in heaven at the same time?, Mankind is a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body, and at death, only they body dies, [Sleeps], Their spirit & soul live on, as I have shown in other posts.
 

Thanks Seeker for pointing that out of course there are numerous scriptures which say that we sleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection which of course contradicts the doctoring of hell and damnation fire and brimstone and burning people for ever witch i think is not found in scripture.
  I'll ask a question our Lord gave us the commands of Love to Love God to Love our neighbor and to Love our enemies if we have to abide by these law is it not reasonable to think   that God would abide by the same law if so how do we equate God barbecuing alive 90% of the worlds population for ever because there his enemies is Christ's sacrifice to small to save them The doctoring of hell is nonsense.

Quote
Jesus4me said
  Please note v14, Those who are asleep, [Their bodies, not their Spirit & soul], God will bring with Him   
 

You can't insert your own words into the text which say's those who are asleep it say's nothing about spirit or soul  as a matter of interest when did man get an eternal spirit I can't seam to find it in scripture when God created Adam there is no mention of a spirit.

of the ground.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Total KJV occurrences: 753
 
Even in Strong's definition there is no mention of a spirit in jest say's Adam became a living breathing animal no mention of a spirit so where dose it say in scripture that man has an eternal spirit except when we receive the spirit of Christ I can concede that Christ's spirit returns to him when we die but that's his spirit not ours.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline Jesus4me

Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2015, 03:28:17 PM »
Thanks Seeker for pointing that out of course there are numerous scriptures which say that we sleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection which of course contradicts the doctoring of hell and damnation fire and brimstone and burning people for ever witch i think is not found in scripture.
  I'll ask a question our Lord gave us the commands of Love to Love God to Love our neighbor and to Love our enemies if we have to abide by these law is it not reasonable to think   that God would abide by the same law if so how do we equate God barbecuing alive 90% of the worlds population for ever because there his enemies is Christ's sacrifice to small to save them The doctoring of hell is nonsense.
 

You can't insert your own words into the text which say's those who are asleep it say's nothing about spirit or soul  as a matter of interest when did man get an eternal spirit I can't seam to find it in scripture when God created Adam there is no mention of a spirit.

of the ground.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Total KJV occurrences: 753
 
Even in Strong's definition there is no mention of a spirit in jest say's Adam became a living breathing animal no mention of a spirit so where dose it say in scripture that man has an eternal spirit except when we receive the spirit of Christ I can concede that Christ's spirit returns to him when we die but that's his spirit not ours.

Love and Peace
Dave


I'm not inserting my own words, Look again, 1 Thess 4: 14, "Will God BRING WITH HIM",  How can God bring the souls with Him if they are asleep in the grave, Are you saying God lives in a grave??. NO..NO.., The souls will come from Heaven, Not the grave.

Man is a Spirit, "Pneuma", who has a soul, "Psuche", and lives in a body, "Soma", Three different Greek words, Three different parts of man.
God breathed the spirit and soul into Adam, and all mankind, The Hebrew says, Man became a talking spirit, The spirit and soul are so closely put together, it takes the word of God to separate them. Heb 4: 12.

Please note, We do have a spirit and the Greek word is "Pneuma", as I have said. See 1 Thess 5: 23.
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Serenity

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Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2015, 03:29:34 PM »
Quote
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What is it that turns a dead soul into a living soul? what is the 'living' part of that Scripture?

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