Author Topic: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.  (Read 2014 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2016, 09:47:19 AM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
That's ok Cariad

I had "self effort"in mind - hence the ladder [which fits in with this topic]

Going on with the ladder theme......

Can I ask "If all Israel will/shall/is/has been/ saved - then...That must include the pharisees and sadducees...etc

Surely everyone has a certain communication with God [even the pharisees]

Hence they have built a ladder to God ...

I mean the political parties of that time were as much a part of Israel as the "rich young ruler"

Now I get the feeling that will will say "this is the spiritaul Israel which includes anyone "chosen by God"

If so "then - it is not all of Israel is it ?"

So now we are talking about the "spiritual Israel of God"

And not the Pharisaical  portion of Israel / who attempted to climb the ladder through their own efforts/ as incidently "most of Israel at that time did]


Now if they did not make it before God then neither do we [as most people believe that it is about how we live and not about what we believe]

Opens a can of worms

Hello again, @TJ's,

Re. The Ladder.

That ladder is Christ, isn't it, the only true and living way to the Father. 
We cannot come to the Father any other way. 

Praise God! - For His provision for us, for providing the way. 
Praise Him! - For enabling us to see and believe that He is the Christ the Son of the Living God, and in doing so receive Life through His Name.

Thank you  :)
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

TJ

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2016, 02:47:14 PM »
Quote
It is God's promise, and His faithfulness which is at issue here, and not Israel itself.

The same applies to us, as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.  We may not remain faithful, but God will, and the promises of God are sure, He cannot deny Himself, He will perform it. Praise His Holy Name!

He has promised us life, resurrection life, and we will receive it.  However, whether we reign with Him, whether we receive a crown of righteousness to lay at His feet when our race is run, that is another matter.

So God's promises are True and not Israel's unfaithfulness..but it is up to us to walk into that promise !

So in other word's - although God cannot deny Himself  - we can deny Him . [prodigal son]

"who then can be saved "  Luke 18:26

However if a parent has children and they do as they want [does this deny their right as chldren ]

[In other words "I am a child of the Father but it depends whether I walk into His house[promises] and if I walk out I am no longer the child]



[sorry for persisiting [as I am picking your thoughts]


Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2852
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2016, 02:55:52 PM »
Hi
some interesting food for thought here thanks there is some interesting imagery here.

Gen 28:12  And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Gen 28:13  And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14  And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15  And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Jacob of course is Israel the promises given here are for Israel and his seed which is Christ the ladder represents the promise that he would never leave Israel until he had completed everything he had promised the promise will be completed at our Lords second coming.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2016, 08:38:56 PM »
So God's promises are True and not Israel's unfaithfulness..but it is up to us to walk into that promise !

So in other word's - although God cannot deny Himself  - we can deny Him . [prodigal son]

"who then can be saved "  Luke 18:26

However if a parent has children and they do as they want [does this deny their right as chldren ]

[In other words "I am a child of the Father but it depends whether I walk into His house[promises] and if I walk out I am no longer the child]

[sorry for persisting [as I am picking your thoughts]

Hi @TJ's

I don't know whether my thoughts are worth picking. :)

God's promises are true, yes, but so is Israel's unfaithfulness, isn't it.  The promises of God, made to the Fathers, which the Lord Jesus Christ came to confirm (Rom. 15:6), are yet still in abeyance, waiting the repentance of Israel for their fulfillment, aren't they?

There is only one promise that we have in Christ Jesus, and that is life. (2 Tim.1:1) The promises made to the Fathers, are to Israel, they are not for us.  Don't you agree?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad







Cariad

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2016, 09:04:58 PM »
Hi
some interesting food for thought here thanks there is some interesting imagery here.

Gen 28:12  And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Gen 28:13  And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14  And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15  And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Jacob of course is Israel the promises given here are for Israel and his seed which is Christ the ladder represents the promise that he would never leave Israel until he had completed everything he had promised the promise will be completed at our Lords second coming.

Love and Peace
Dave

Yes, @davetaff,

Coming back to the OP, and the promise of God, made to Nathaniel, with it's reference to Genesis 28. There is indeed food for thought.

'Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him,
and saith of Him,
"Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!"
Nathanael saith unto Him,
"Whence knowest thou me?"
 Jesus answered and said unto him,
"Before that Philip called thee,
when thou wast under the fig tree,
I saw thee."

Nathanael answered and saith unto Him,
"Rabbi, Thou art the Son of God;
Thou art the King of Israel."

Jesus answered and said unto him,
" Because I said unto thee,
'I saw thee under the fig tree', believest thou?
thou shalt see greater things than these."
And He saith unto him,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Hereafter ye shall see heaven open,
and the angels of God
ascending and descending upon the Son of man."
'

(John 1:47-51)

The words of the Lord to Nathanael, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile', is also an allusion to Jacob isn't it?  Who was far from guileless.  This reference to Nathanael being, 'an Israelite indeed', knowing that the name Israel was given to Jacob, (Genesis 32:28) by God: and means, 'God commands, orders or rules', I believe that this name spoken of Nathaniel, is a recognition by our Lord Jesus Christ, that Nathaniel was a man who sought to honour God and obey Him. These are just my thoughts I have nothing but that name to qualify what I say.

I agree with you, Dave, that these promises, including that made to Nathanael, will be fulfilled at the Lord's second coming, when the testimony of Nathaniel will be gloriously true in all it's glory, "Rabbi, Thou art the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel."

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

TJ

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2016, 01:24:37 AM »
Hi @TJ's

I don't know whether my thoughts are worth picking. :)

God's promises are true, yes, but so is Israel's unfaithfulness, isn't it.  The promises of God, made to the Fathers, which the Lord Jesus Christ came to confirm (Rom. 15:6), are yet still in abeyance, waiting the repentance of Israel for their fulfillment, aren't they?

There is only one promise that we have in Christ Jesus, and that is life. (2 Tim.1:1) The promises made to the Fathers, are to Israel, they are not for us.  Don't you agree?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Aye I believe it is seconded/confirmed  with

Hi
some interesting food for thought here thanks there is some interesting imagery here.

Gen 28:12  And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Gen 28:13  And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14  And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15  And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Jacob of course is Israel the promises given here are for Israel and his seed which is Christ the ladder represents the promise that he would never leave Israel until he had completed everything he had promised the promise will be completed at our Lords second coming.

Love and Peace
Dave

TJ

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2016, 02:25:09 AM »
I'm not sure - as Jacob wss a ,liar, deceiver, grabber and he manipulated things and people.

So why could God not overcome Jacob ? this is the God who overcomes ....and if God can not overcome .....then !

Genesis 32:25:  [and so God permits Jacob to break free] "this is God's [permissive will" [prodigal  son]

And so now God calls him Israel ...

Now with this you might conclude that Israel will be free.

Is that the Israel that repents [future tense] or the Israel that died in the wilderness ? [past tense]

Now we are grafted  into the vine with  [Israel] Romans 11:17; - under the context of The Remnant of Israel - Romans 11 now see : Romans 11:11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles,


To me Jacobs ladder [is scripture alive] it is The Ladder that Jacob saw "of messengers constantly passing between heaven and earth - the constant messaging from God to man [personal]  not just a promise that we will be saved - but promises as individual [as we are saved and His children]

Whether we lived in Jewish biblical times or now in this day and age [the messengers continue to come from heaven [God] to us and people continue to wrestle with God [in thier personal lives] = a message is given to me - now and I convey it......



To me Jacobs ladder does not end with Jacob [Israel] and I myself am waiting on promises [words] given to me by "Jacobs Ladder" "a message" by a Messenger....indeed we all [who are His ] walk with a limp

Do not forget this is the God of Abraham - of Isaac and of Jacob

Although Israel after much wrestling will limp [as God seemingly never overcame her] she will by her own repentance /turning come back to God [prodigal son /Israel]

for more info go to # http://www.christianfaithforums.co.uk/2012/11/psalm-84-study-surpasser.html

And so as my above bible study suggests - "God may not be able to overcome my will [as He breaks me but allows me to have a will] but He surpasses me and my understanding. - with this I might ask "Can we ever know the  hypostatic union that Jesus knew or has ?

I might suggest He lives in us and therefore we do [ as they did [Israel]

In other words we "take that which us not ours - because we inherit that which we never earnt -  [you see God supplants - as He takes our place]

Some thoughts to ponder








http://www.christianfaithforums.co.uk/2012/11/psalm-84-study-surpasser.html

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: My thoughts on Jacob's ladder.
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2016, 08:56:10 AM »
I'm not sure - as Jacob was a, liar, deceiver, grabber and he manipulated things and people.

So why could God not overcome Jacob? this is the God who overcomes ....and if God can not overcome .....then !

Genesis 32:25:  [and so God permits Jacob to break free] "this is God's [permissive will" [prodigal  son]

And so now God calls him Israel ...

Now with this you might conclude that Israel will be free.

Is that the Israel that repents [future tense] or the Israel that died in the wilderness ? [past tense]

Now we are grafted  into the vine with  [Israel] Romans 11:17; - under the context of The Remnant of Israel - Romans 11 now see : Romans 11:11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles,


To me Jacobs ladder [is scripture alive] it is The Ladder that Jacob saw "of messengers constantly passing between heaven and earth - the constant messaging from God to man [personal]  not just a promise that we will be saved - but promises as individual [as we are saved and His children]

Whether we lived in Jewish biblical times or now in this day and age [the messengers continue to come from heaven [God] to us and people continue to wrestle with God [in thier personal lives] = a message is given to me - now and I convey it......

To me Jacobs ladder does not end with Jacob [Israel] and I myself am waiting on promises [words] given to me by "Jacobs Ladder" "a message" by a Messenger....indeed we all [who are His ] walk with a limp

Do not forget this is the God of Abraham - of Isaac and of Jacob

Although Israel after much wrestling will limp [as God seemingly never overcame her] she will by her own repentance /turning come back to God [prodigal son /Israel]

for more info go to # http://www.christianfaithforums.co.uk/2012/11/psalm-84-study-surpasser.html

And so as my above bible study suggests - "God may not be able to overcome my will [as He breaks me but allows me to have a will] but He surpasses me and my understanding. - with this I might ask "Can we ever know the  hypostatic union that Jesus knew or has ?

I might suggest He lives in us and therefore we do [ as they did [Israel]

In other words we "take that which us not ours - because we inherit that which we never earnt -  [you see God supplants - as He takes our place]

Some thoughts to ponder

Hi @TJ's,

Thank you for supplying the link to your study on Psalm 84.  I have read it through, (but not in depth). In doing so I was able to understand a little more your way of expressing yourself, your thought process, which is helpful.

I know what it is like to have the hand of the Lord upon my life, too, TJ, known His disciplining, His correction, praise God! and yes, now walk with a limp, and lean upon my staff.  How gracious the Lord is to us, how precious His dealings with us.  To know that He is treating us as Sons, and correcting us in measure as a Father does his children.

Up until that moment beside the Jordan river, Jacob spoke of God, as the God of my Fathers, but from now on the relation is deeper.  The next alter he erects is given the name, 'Elelohe-Israel' - meaning, 'GOD - the God-of-Israel (Gen. 33:20).

To us, who have been accepted in the Beloved, God bears the title, not of, 'The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob', but the beloved Title  - 'The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ' .  How wonderful that is!

Praise His Name!

There is much more I would like to address, from your entry, TJ, but time has run out for me at the moment, so maybe another time (GW)

With my thanks :)
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

http://www.christianfaithforums.co.uk/2012/11/psalm-84-study-surpasser.html

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal