Author Topic: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?  (Read 520 times)

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Offline Disciple

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Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« on: June 19, 2014, 01:00:30 AM »
If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?

If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ? you mean (Matthew 18:20); ? sin in the congregation ?

 
Where two or three are gathered (Matthew 18:20); is under the context of(A Brother who Sins)  see (Matthew 18:21);Often its used to accommodate non attendance or applied  to a Church with small numbers, obviously this cannot apply to all small groups or house groups within a Church, so it fails to prop up this application.It must be applied to those "who are His" (Romans 8:14-17); meeting in His name to seek His counsel and whereby He [that is God] is directing their counsels, so that in all things the offender might be approached and there might be reconciliation.In this God is the bridge and the Holy Spirit is the person who works and walks between the two parties.The said scripture of two or three might be more appropriately  used in the sense of 1 Corinthians 5:4; where a brother is rebuked for immorality and handed over to satan so that he may be saved on the last day.Jesus being absent having gone away but leaving His Spirit among those who are His , as Jesus stands in the parenthesis between them. Division already being caused before the meeting of the congregation However in Jewish belief a number less than ten is not a congregation and forgiveness is repeated seventy time seven, although (Amos 2:1); declares three times only, Jesus extends this to seventy-seven times in the parable of the unforgiving servant.In other words the forgiveness should be a way of life everyday with a contrite heart (Psalm 51:17); or "Spirit of forgiveness". In that the Judges hammer smashed to rock to pieces and in this is the best form of sacrifice, although obedience is better than sacrifice wherein having been obedient the sacrifice of the heart is already given (1 Samuel 15:22); (Matthew 12:7); Wherein Abel brought a better thing (Genesis 4:4); Wherein it is better not to do something than to do it and then say "sorry".

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Offline Guardian

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 02:25:35 AM »
Quote
If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?

Not necessarily no

this would summise that the Judgement of a brother or sister who sins after being taken from three to a congregation is in essence a correct judgement

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Serenity

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2014, 02:37:48 PM »
If God is everywhere, then why would He not be where 2 or 3 are gathered, in His name or not?

Alien-R

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 01:59:04 AM »
1 Corinthians 5:4  3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already
 judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when
you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,



Well as per Matthew 18:20; as far as I can tell its about "those gathered together in His name"

Literally in "union" with Him and with the purpose of giving glory to His name, in this it is an "assembly"
of those who are really His "acting in the honour of His name" being in unity to stop discourse or anything
that hinders the Spirit of God. Therefore although Jesus is no longer with us in "person", He is with us
 in Spirit and God already having judged the person.

It can be said that "God is everywhere and in all things" as per Ephesians 4:6; and therefore God is
omnipresent, as too the eyes of the Lord are everywhere, as in  Proverbs 15:3; but these verses as per
1 Corinthians 5:4 and Matthew 18:20 are speaking of God being in and among and assuming that the actions of those who are Gods are done in and while among the "Spirit" Godhead and not while outside of this "Spirit" 1 Corinthians 3:16;

Rather than 1 Corinthians 14:25; that speaks of those who see God at work among the congregation.

In the same way as satan moves within the boundaries of Gods creation and God knows all he does, we cannot say that "all satan does is done in God's Spirit" or that "although satan knows scripture, he obeys God"

Rather this is about "those who seek Gods will in the matter of humankind and Gods will in a matter

Neither can we say that "all activities done in Jesus name are of God"

Remembering that this verse of Matthew 18:20; is about unity in Jesus but in context of "a brother who sins" therefore hindering the congregation as a whole. this verse  can be used in a variety of ways "but not always in Gods". It identifies Jesus as the Author being and working in the Spirit through the people of the congregation of two three or more or many, being in unity and in desicion.

It however does not include those who do not have God's Spirit within them, but who also can act and judge in the same way .

Offline John

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 10:07:12 AM »
Jesus sent the disciples out in pairs to preach, heal and drive out demons. Judas was part of a pair, yet there is no report that of 6 pairs one pair, the one with judas, didn't heal and drive out demons.
God honoured the faith of the disciple who was with judas.

The promise is where God's people are meeting to worship there God will be. It is irrelevent how many people are there, else where we are told that God will live in those who love and obey him.
Does the prescence of an unbeliever stop God from being present?    Depends on how big ones vision of God is.

Offline francis drake

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 11:42:02 PM »
The answer to this was pointed out to me by a Messianic Jew. His interpretation indicates that most of these replies completely miss the real point.

According to rabbinic tradition, a prayer meeting could not be considered legitimate unless there were ten members, a Minyan. Jesus is simply pointing out that he did not need a minyan before he listens.
Therefore this verse is not about ensuring the right number in a prayer meeting, but rejecting the notion of there being a right number.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Alien-R

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 03:26:29 AM »
Yes Jesus can be with one or one thousand, but the point I think here is that Matthew 18:20 is not so much about "what is a Church" as is so often used in this case, but rather it is about the process of discipline.

eg:

A Brother who Sins

Matthew 18:15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.?16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven


And this comes after the parable of the lost sheep and before the parable of the "unforgiving servant" [forgiving seventy times seven]

Note Matthew 16:19 and that verse is not about excomunication but is the binding and loosing of the Kingdom in which we say "yuo are not bound by rules, you are not bound by laws, you are not bound by this or that " because the gospel which is the word of life has said it, therefore you are loosed and free.For example Peter bound the sorcerer in Acts 8:21 and the door was shut because peter had the keys of the Kingdom

And the misunderstanding of these above scriptures or misuse of is common place and in this sense "one" was the total number of the authority given, therefore the keys given to Peter here in this instance unlocked the secrets of the word unto simon the sorcerer and "1" being the total number used in the binding. The sorcerer was lost as his heart was not right , therefore as with "the rich young ruler and Jesus" in  Mark 10:17-27 the above scriptures come into play - as per Matthew 18:20 as this heart could not share in the worship which is Romans 12:1 and herein lies the "key" of loosing and binding.

As for Matthew 18:20 it states "if your brother"

A good example to use for loosing a person might be Acts 16:25-34 where all are literally loosed from their chains but however the real loosing took place in the life of the Jailer and his family when their chains fell off, therefore here it can be said that the first part of that story is the physical prophesy of an actual spiritual event that was about to take place. Here Paul and Silas spoke and unlocked the gospel message and gave the keys of the Kingdom to the Jailer thereby loosing him and his family.

Therefore it can be said that "it was already loosed in heaven before it was loosed upon the earth or family" in this it can be translated as "whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven" and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven.


Alien-R

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Re: Faith-Q - If two or three are gathered is Jesus there ?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 12:32:25 PM »
The answer to this was pointed out to me by a Messianic Jew. His interpretation indicates that most of these replies completely miss the real point.

According to rabbinic tradition, a prayer meeting could not be considered legitimate unless there were ten members, a Minyan. Jesus is simply pointing out that he did not need a minyan before he listens.
Therefore this verse is not about ensuring the right number in a prayer meeting, but rejecting the notion of there being a right number.

Although the total number be appear to be "one" in reality the number is two [see eternal covenant between the Godhead @ http://faithq.co.uk/index.php/27-biblical-questions/covenants/70-what-is-the-eternal-covenant] and so the two or three we know here is very important, but maybe not to certain traditions that do not believe in the "Trinity" therein the number may not be three of the Godhead but rather one or two, in either case we know that when the Godhead is in agreement with a person , it is not the person who has the power to release and loose or bind but rather "Jesus" and we maybe as apostles and disciples are merely unlocking scripture to find the secrets and keys to pass on those doors  that have already been opened in heaven.

In one respect we might not see much significance in numbers when it comes to people, but when it comes to the Godhead it may well be seen as  important. Thus when peter and silas loosed the jailer and family it was done by a number "3". and not by Peter.

This loosing would have caused quite an earthquake in heaven and hell as an entire family are regenerated and saved , coming from death to life : see Matthew 27:51; and this can be said to have already occured , not just through the prophetic earthquake event and the loosing of the Jailer in Acts 16:25-34; but before the earth was formed.
http://faithq.co.uk/index.php/27-biblical-questions/covenants/70-what-is-the-eternal-covenant

 

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