Author Topic: many were made sinners  (Read 554 times)

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Efengylwr71

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Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 07:18:15 AM »

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Efengylwr71.

I refer to your reply above, and would like to ask,

What is your understanding of,

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

In what way was Adams behaviour typical of what Jesus did to save us?

Thank you.

Edwin.
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.  Genesis 3:17
I think it is important firstly to realize that Adam was punished for his disobedience, and that God did not reward him for listening to his wife. The above scripture I think clearly indicates this.
You ask "In what way was Adams behaviour typical of what Jesus did to save us?" But I would ask you, did Jesus sin to save us, or did he save us because he was sinless and took our sins upon himself? You see you can`t save anyone by sinning yourself, and indeed, did Adam save his wife from punishment by doing the same as her? I don`t think he did, because the punishment given to Eve still stood, and still stands even to this day. In what way was Christ like Adam? Christ was like Adam in that he was sinless, as Adam was sinless until he chose to disobey God. Adam was the first man, Christ was the first man never to sin. And as all died through Adam, all lived through Christ. And so the comparison that Paul gives may not quite be what you think it is. The comparison is made because Adam caused all men to die, and that Christ causes all who accept him to live. And Paul makes this abundantly clear when he says...
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,?1 Corinthians 15:21
And so as Adam`s fruit was death, and the fruit of Christ was (and is) life. Both brought something into the world, both were the first in their own right. Both were sinless, although Christ was the only one to remain sinless. So it is clear that the "Type" you are on about is not the type that scripture clearly states. Nowhere in the bible does it say that Adam was the hero. Indeed, how can anyone who brings death be a hero? Adam brought death, pain, misery, damnation, to the WHOLE human race. Christ brings the exact opposite, life, peace, joy, and everlasting union with the most holy God. They both bare similarities in many ways, being the first, both bringing something into the world, having being sinless (although Adam lost that status). But Adam was no hero. Adam transgressed and brought death into the world (Along with Eve of course) Tell me, what is heroic about bringing death and suffering into the world? It just doesn`t figure does it? Christ however is a hero, and brings life to all who believe in him. Christ is the first, as Adam was the first, and both brough something into the world. Apart from that, that`s where the similarity ends, and if you use your God given common sense, you will perceive this simple fact. God bless.

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Offline clark thompson

Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 11:55:40 PM »
(Romans 5:19 says :

    "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"

Would we have been sinners anyway without Adams disobedience ?
Creation would not have fallen into sin without the fall all mankind would be innocent.
One day I will be home

Edwin

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Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 05:07:48 PM »
Efengylwr71, you say,

"But I would ask you, did Jesus sin to save us, or did he save us because he was sinless and took our sins upon himself?"

Jesus was indeed sinless, as also was Adam, before the fall.

2Cr 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

In other words, He allowed Himself who knew no sin to be made sin in order to save His bride.

Adam, who we are told "was a type of the one who was to come." Namely a type, or if you like a picture of Jesus.

Like Jesus, Adam, who knew no sin allowed himself to be made sin in order to save his bride.

You further ask,

"did Adam save his wife from punishment by doing the same as her?"

Have a look at,

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 
1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 
1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety. 
 
Note, "she will be saved through her child-bearing".

In other words the human race must be started, to enable our redeemer to be born into it.

Efengylwr71

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Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 04:02:00 AM »
Efengylwr71, you say,

"But I would ask you, did Jesus sin to save us, or did he save us because he was sinless and took our sins upon himself?"

Jesus was indeed sinless, as also was Adam, before the fall.

2Cr 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

In other words, He allowed Himself who knew no sin to be made sin in order to save His bride.

Adam, who we are told "was a type of the one who was to come." Namely a type, or if you like a picture of Jesus.

Like Jesus, Adam, who knew no sin allowed himself to be made sin in order to save his bride.

You further ask,

"did Adam save his wife from punishment by doing the same as her?"

Have a look at,

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 
1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 
1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety. 
 
Note, "she will be saved through her child-bearing".

In other words the human race must be started, to enable our redeemer to be born into it.
But Jesus did not sin as Adam did, in that is a vast difference. And as I said, did Adam save Eve by sinning? No he did not. Eve was still under God`s curse, as Adam was for disobeying God. Tell me, where in the bible does it say that Adam sinned so as to save Eve? Where? All it says is that Eve was deceived, but that Adam was not deceived. In fact that makes the sin of Adam worse, because it means that Adam`s act of disobedience was far more willful than Eve`s. Adam listened to his wife instead of God, for which God punished him.
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Genesis 3:17
Would also you assert that it is only women who need salvation, since it was Eve that was deceived and not Adam? Now for crying out loud, will you at long last answer this question. Why (If Adam was the hero) did God punish him? All you do is infer and assert without any biblical basis. And as I have proven in my previous post, the "Type" that Paul mentions is not what you are asserting, and you have skipped conveniently over most of my points.
What you are asserting has no biblical basis whatsoever. Indeed I wonder did you get this fanciful, un-biblical idea from Chuck Missler? Who also propagates this theological, un-biblical error.

Edwin

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Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 12:58:21 PM »
Efengylwr71
 
I am sorry if I have upset you, but it certainly was not my intention to do so.
 
You say,
 
"But Jesus did not sin as Adam did,"
 
No problem, I agree, but "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us" 2Cr 5:21
 
You further say,
 
"Tell me, where in the bible does it say that Adam sinned so as to save Eve?"
 
1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
 
Adam sinned, well yes of course he did, and was reprimanded by God for doing so, but that does not alter his being "a type of Him who was to come".
 
There are a number of individuals who are also "a type of Him who was to come" as can be seen from,
 
Types of Christ on this web site.
 
But they also were all sinners.
 
I have no intention to introduce error to this, or any other Bible study web site. I only submit what I believe to be true.
 
Yours sincerely.
 
Edwin.

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: many were made sinners
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 07:05:09 PM »
Efengylwr71
 
I am sorry if I have upset you, but it certainly was not my intention to do so.
 
You say,
 
"But Jesus did not sin as Adam did,"
 
No problem, I agree, but "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us" 2Cr 5:21
 
You further say,
 
"Tell me, where in the bible does it say that Adam sinned so as to save Eve?"
 
 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
 
Adam sinned, well yes of course he did, and was reprimanded by God for doing so, but that does not alter his being "a type of Him who was to come".
 
There are a number of individuals who are also "a type of Him who was to come" as can be seen from,
 
Types of Christ on this web site.
 
But they also were all sinners.
 
I have no intention to introduce error to this, or any other Bible study web site. I only submit what I believe to be true.
 
Yours sincerely.
 
Edwin.
That is a total misinterpretation  of that verse. Tell me, did Jesus become a sinner when Paul says he became sin? Did Jesus lose his sanctification when Paul says he became sin? You can take on somebody else`s dirt without it being your own you know. When Paul says he became sin, he wasn`t literally saying that Jesus who is holy God became sinful, he was using and analogy to convey that the sins of the world were on his shoulders, as in paying the debt for sin. Now if you literally believe that Jesus became sin from what Paul said, then that`s a grave error. There is such thing as a figure of speech, a way of conveying something, which is not to be taken literally. And I`m certain that that`s not what Paul meant at all.
I`m afraid that your answer to my question about Adam sinning to save Eve doesn`t really follow from the premise does it? Where in that verse does it imply that Adam sinned to save Eve? All it says that if women continue in child bearing they will be saved. Where does Paul reference Adam sinning to save Eve? I`m afraid you`re extrapolating things from biblical verses which aren`t there. When Eve sinned, God could have easily made another woman to be with Adam, and indeed what was the law for a woman committing adultery? Death of course. God has no problem with doing away with disobedient children, I`m not saying he wants to do it, but he is willing to do it because he hates sin. This he definitely showed in the flood. He could have easily made another woman for Adam to be with, and indeed he may have rewarded Adam for his obedience in such a fashion. I`m not saying that that`s what would have happened, but it is a possibility. And indeed there is mention in one of the Hebraic verses that have been omitted from the bible that Adam had a wife before Eve, her name was Lileth, and she was disobedient also. Now I`m not saying that those verses are true or untrue,  but I have certainly heard of them. Not everything that happened in history is written down, and much that was has been omitted, and maybe some added, who knows. But there is one thing I`m certain of, that God who is love would never punish an act of love, he would only punish if you loved someone above him. As Jesus said...
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37.
So God was angry with Adam, because he listened to his wife rather than his creator, which is exactly what the bible says, no extrapolations. You see, there are many other possibilities rather than Adam the hero. As I have stated before the type of him who was to come doesn`t mean that Adam was a hero, only that he was the first, as Jesus was the first. Adam brought death, Jesus brought life.
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned?
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man?s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
And the free gift is not like the result of that one man?s sin. For the judgement following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
For if, because of one man?s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
For as by the one man?s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man?s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:12-20
You see, if you look at the verse in more detail, you can better see the correlations that Paul is on about. Rather than extrapolating from one line within the verse, and then adding your own assertion based on zero biblical evidence. Now dear Edwin, I`m certainly not upset, and I`m certainly not angry with you at all, I just strongly disagree with what you are saying. Acts of love are heroic, and God who is love, rewards acts of love.
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
Adam could have stayed loyal to God, but he didn`t. And as we all know, our God is a jealous God, and rightly so, for that is the exclusive nature of the spirit of love, it rightly demands that it comes first, for it is in fact first. In light of this, how do you think such a righteous God would punish such love? It just doesn`t follow. What you suggest is almost a nice idea, and I can see how you could get into that way of thinking about the scenario. But in truth that`s all it is, a fanciful idea and a misunderstanding of the verses of Paul. God bless.

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