Author Topic: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline John

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2020, 10:35:43 PM »
No Dave,
Jesus asking God the Father to forgive is Not the same as Jesus forgiving. In the gospel he forgave people their sin and he told them your sins are forgiven. In every case there was clear repentance befor he forgave them.
In the case of his crucifiers there is no evidence that hey we're repentant, so he could not forgive them.

As you will be aware, throughout the bible forgiveness is Always precided by repentance and this is brought out by Jesus's teaching on repentance.

Yes Dave you are right that we must forgive likeJesus any repentant sinner/offender and there is no limit to how often we forgive a repentant offender.
Like Jesus we hand unrepentant offender and our feelings etc over to God for him to deal with.
The hard part is we have to pray for the benefit of that offender. This is why many prefer the unbiblical practice of trying to forgive offenders no matter what they do.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2020, 12:58:38 PM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply the question is who is in charge the Father or the Son our lord said.

  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:19 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.5.19.KJV         


So our lord said he could do nothing of himself everything he did all the power he used came from the Father so when our Lord said a person was forgiven did it come from the Father.
If I ask the Father to forgive someone its because I want that person to be forgiven which is worth more my forgivness or the Fathers.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.5.19.KJV

Offline John

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 10:25:42 PM »
If one asks someone to do something it is because one cannot do it.

So you are right Jesus ask God the Father to forgive his crucifixes because, as they were unrepentant he could not forgive them..

In asking God to forgive them, Jesus handed the situation and the responsibility over to God.

Neither God the Father and Jesus, God the Son have the same requirements for forgiving anyone. That they repent.
We as imitators of Jesus therefore have the same requirements.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 02:41:42 PM »
If one asks someone to do something it is because one cannot do it.

So you are right Jesus ask God the Father to forgive his crucifixes because, as they were unrepentant he could not forgive them..

In asking God to forgive them, Jesus handed the situation and the responsibility over to God.

Neither God the Father and Jesus, God the Son have the same requirements for forgiving anyone. That they repent.
We as imitators of Jesus therefore have the same requirements.

Hi John
Thank you for your post on the other hand we want something done so we ask someone who is far more qualified to do it for us than we are.
Why did Christ ask the Father to forgive his persecutors was it because they had done it as part of the Father plan for the salvation of the world after all without them and what they did there could be no forgiveness.
Yes repentance is essential to forgiveness on question but those who persecuted and killed Christ did not repent as far as I know and how many were included in our Lord request was it the whole House of Israel and will that forgiveness be granted in the end times when all Israel will be saved ??

Love and Peace
Dave     

Offline John

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 09:27:13 PM »
Dave quotekilled Christ did not repent as far as I know and how many were included in our Lord request was it the whole House of Israel and will that forgiveness be granted in the end times when all Israel will be saved ??end quote.

As you said, there is no knowledge of there ever repenting so there is no possibility of there being forgiven.

The whole house of Israel is everyone who has repented.

God has only one set of rules and they apply to everybody.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2020, 06:31:51 PM »
Hi John
Tank you for you reply you said.

Quote
   As you said, there is no knowledge of there ever repenting so there is no possibility of there being forgiven.

The whole house of Israel is everyone who has repented.

God has only one set of rules and they apply to everybody.       


There's nothing to say they had to repent 2000 years ago Israel as a nation can repent next week and get forgivness.
Would The Father refuse the sons request all those Israeleites who repented and turned to Christ became Christians they were reborn.
Not forgetting that all Israel will be saved which must mean they shall receive forgiveness at some time in the future.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2020, 09:56:23 PM »
Dave stay focused, we are talking about the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus not the nation of Israel.

The bible makes something very clear, that the time to repent and accept Jesus is Now, not tomorrow, or next week but today.
There is no other chance and once dead then as you died so one is, either a Christian or a non Christian. There are no chances after death.

Both God the Father and Jesus work to the same set of rules. Without repentance there is No forgiveness, if one is not forgiven then all that remains is eternal separation from God, also known as hell.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Is Sin a sin when not recogised ?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2020, 02:34:45 PM »
Dave stay focused, we are talking about the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus not the nation of Israel.

Hi John
I think you need to read your Bible

Mat_27:17  So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, ?Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or R18Jesus who is called Christ??      Pilate wanted to release Jesus it was the Israelites who called for the death sentence the soldiers were only obeying orders it was Israel who were responsible for the death of Christ only  Israel could sacrifice to God.
Its the story of Cain and Able the older brother kills the younger brother       


The bible makes something very clear, that the time to repent and accept Jesus is Now, not tomorrow, or next week but today.
There is no other chance and once dead then as you died so one is, either a Christian or a non Christian. There are no chances after death.

Thing is John its always today when I wake up next Friday it will be today
Death is not the end there will be a resurrection of the dead

Rev 20:4  Then I saw R20thrones, and R21seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw R22the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those R23who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. R24They came to life and R25reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 
Rev 20:5  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  R26Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such R1the second death has no power, but they will be R2priests of God and of Christ, and they R3will reign with him for a thousand years.      
We have a lot to look forward to


Both God the Father and Jesus work to the same set of rules. Without repentance there is No forgiveness, if one is not forgiven then all that remains is eternal separation from God, also known as hell.
Cant argue with that

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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