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Alien-R

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 01:12:11 AM »

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Efengylwr71.

Here as promised is the answer.

You will recall I asked, "would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been tempted ?
 
The answer of course is, "no she would not ".

This then leads to another question, "Why was the tempter the devil created?".
 
In respect of the devil. I was once asked,
 
"why was he created?"
 
My reply was,
 
I will now try to answer this as follows.
 
Ask your self the question, "What is it that we all of us want more than anything else?"
 
Answer:
 
To be loved for ourselves, for what we are, not for any material advantage that might be gained. Is it any surprise that the Lord our God also wants to be loved for Himself, for His nature, His integrity, His personality, His dedication, and so on, but most of all His Love, and not only for the, "material advantages", He provides.
 
That is why it is written.
 
Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving[fn4] that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mar 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
with all your mind, and with all your strength.'[fn5] This is the first commandment.[fn6]
Mar 12:31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[fn7] There is no other commandment greater than these."
 
Our Lord Jesus is here quoting Deuteronomy Chapter 6 verses 5, and 6.
 
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Deu 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
 
Now how can we fallen creatures love Him as He wants to be loved, unless we have a demonstration, a sign, well Jesus said at verse 39 below,
 
Mat 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
Mat 12:39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Mat 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
The sign to which He referees  is of course His death by crucifixion.
 
When we know that our Creator God, deliberately caused Himself to be born into the human race, knowing full well in advance just what we would do to Him, and did not use one iota of His limitless power to extricate Himself from the excruciating agony of this horrible death, how can we not love Him for the person that He is.
 
But this sacrificial death would be meaningless, if there was no need for it, and for this reason there had to be an alternative to God, (The Devil), and we had to become sinners in order to be saved.
 
Perhaps this explanation will help to answer the question, "Why was the Devil created?".
 
The Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
 
Edwin.

Quote
You will recall I asked, "would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if she had not been tempted ?
 
The answer of course is, "no she would not ".


I repeat

satan was tempted  and yet he had no one to tempt him

Yes man would have fallen without temptation

because for God to have our love and attention there must be free will

 free will to obey or not

this is where "Gods love can work"

God cannot force love "as we or angels are not puppets"

therefore we must have a choice

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Alien-R

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 01:30:15 PM »

Efengylwr71

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 03:09:56 AM »
the devil always picks on the weakest, and I would surgest that Adam because he had a relationship with God was not vunerable, while Eve lacked that relationship and so was deceived by the devils misquotations and misrepresentation/lies.


                                               John
If Adam was not vulnerable, why did he also eat of the fruit?

Offline John

Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 08:43:57 AM »
 he was not vunerable to the devils temptation, Eve I would surggest was a different kettle of fish.

possible he was in love and she could twist hi round her little finger.


                                                                                     John

Edwin

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 09:44:17 AM »
Thank you Efengylwr71 for asking

"If Adam was not vulnerable, why did he also eat of the fruit?"

Perhaps the following will be of help.

The fall of man, an alternative view.
 
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
This of course all happened at "The fall", see.
 
Gen 2:17 "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".. This is an incorrect translation, as it should read, "for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die".
 
That is to say, two deaths, spiritual death at the moment you eat thereof, followed by physical death in due course.
 
The popular view on Genesis Ch 3, certainly in this Country is that Adam was a wimp, in that he did nothing to help his wife when she was tempted, however, my investigations have shown him to be a hero. I am interested to find out if others can arrive, or have arrived at the same conclusion. If you have not considered this matter, and wish to do so then I would suggest that you avoid human commentaries, and rely solely on the Divine commentary. The Bible is the best commentary there is on the Bible.
 
Just look at what the word of God has to say else ware about, "Adam Eve, and the fall". Read Romans Ch 5 v 14. And ask yourself what is meant by Adam being, "a type of Him who was to come"? What did Jesus do to save His Bride, what did Adam do to save his Bride? Read 2 Cor Ch 5 v 21. "He who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin", also don't forget that Adam was not deceived, 2nd Tim Ch 2 v 14. He knew exactly what he was doing, now how does v 15 say that Eve would be saved?.
 
HNV - 1Ti 2:15 - but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
 
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info
 
Did Adam go to the tree to obtain the fruit as She did, no he went to her and took her sin upon himself. Don't worry about the second part of v 6 of Gen Ch 3. I will explain that later. My reason for asking this question in the first place was to find out if anyone else arrived at the same conclusion that I had. I once heard a Speaker describe Adam as "A hopeless, helpless, useless, spineless good for nothing, who did not even raise a finger to help his wife who he could clearly see was in danger of disobeying God".
 
The Speaker went on to say that "Eve at least put up token resistance, and as we know from Scripture she was deceived, we also know that Adam was not deceived, which really puts him beneath contempt".
 
All this I found difficult to accept, it did not gel, it did not seem to have the ring of truth. My approach was two fold, firstly from the Divine view point, and secondly from the Satanic view point. The Lord our God created/made all things in 6 days. His comment on the first 5 days was "It is good", regarding the 6th day He said "It is very good" This was the day on which He made man both the male, and the female.
 
I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that the making of man was for God "The supreme pinnacle of Divine creative genius". He made man in the image of God, and after His likeness, so what likeness of God does Adam display? Hopeless, helpless? Oh no never, never, not the God that I know, could we say to our Lord "Is this the best that You can do?" I think not.
 
From the Satanic view point of wishing to destroy God's creation, he had 3 possible approaches, 1, the pair when they were together, 2, the man when he was by himself, or 3, the woman when she was by herself. Now which of these 3 do you think would be the most likely to succeed from the Devil's point of view. What is needed here of course is commentary, Divine commentary not man's opinion.
 
Lets have a look then at Romans Ch 5 v 14. And also 1st Tim Ch 2 vs 13-15. We learn from Romans that Adam was a Type (Pattern) of Him who was to come, remember that The Lord Jesus who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin to save His Bride. 1st Timothy says that She (Eve) "will be saved through her child-bearing". Now how much childbearing had she done?, Non, can she fertilize herself? No.
 
Now assuming that Adam was else ware at the time of the temptation, when he returned to his wife he would be horrified to see that she had fallen into temptation, she was now cut off from him, and lost for ever, as she would be going to hell. He was still sinless, and perfect (As God had made him) and a sinless one can have no contact with sin, he loves his wife with a pure and holy love as no fallen man can have any idea of.
 
Apart from Adam and Eve, the Human race has not yet been started, and if it isn't started then the kinsman redeemer cannot be born into it. The only way in which mankind can be started, is if he becomes like her, a sinner, remember, he is not deceived, he knows just what he is doing. He does not go to the tree as she had done, but takes the fruit from her hand and partakes thereof. Symbolic of Jesus taking our sin to Himself.
 
Now what sort of likeness of God do we get. A Self sacrificing Hero who became sin for us, or a Wimp. I know which likeness I prefer, how about you? There are, however, two points that might be worth mentioning. Firstly some people will point out that Gen Ch 3 v 6b. Says that "he was with her". Well of course he was with her, how else could he have taken the fruit from her in the first place?.
 
He had to be there, why is there no mention whatsoever of Adam in all the six verses, until after the fruit was taken by Eve?. Why is The Holy Spirit telling us the obvious?. Well perhaps He is not, it might just be His rather subtle way of telling us that Adam was not there all the time.

Now the second point, Who told Adam how to save Eve?. I will tell you the answer to that one, when you tell me how Noah knew the difference between "Clean", and "Unclean" at Gen Ch 7 v 2.
 
Yours in His service.
 
Edwin.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 10:24:58 AM »
Thank you Efengylwr71 for asking

"If Adam was not vulnerable, why did he also eat of the fruit?"

Perhaps the following will be of help.

The fall of man, an alternative view.
 
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
This of course all happened at "The fall", see.
 
Gen 2:17 "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.".. This is an incorrect translation, as it should read, "for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die".
 
That is to say, two deaths, spiritual death at the moment you eat thereof, followed by physical death in due course.
 
The popular view on Genesis Ch 3, certainly in this Country is that Adam was a wimp, in that he did nothing to help his wife when she was tempted, however, my investigations have shown him to be a hero. I am interested to find out if others can arrive, or have arrived at the same conclusion. If you have not considered this matter, and wish to do so then I would suggest that you avoid human commentaries, and rely solely on the Divine commentary. The Bible is the best commentary there is on the Bible.
 
Just look at what the word of God has to say else ware about, "Adam Eve, and the fall". Read Romans Ch 5 v 14. And ask yourself what is meant by Adam being, "a type of Him who was to come"? What did Jesus do to save His Bride, what did Adam do to save his Bride? Read 2 Cor Ch 5 v 21. "He who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin", also don't forget that Adam was not deceived, 2nd Tim Ch 2 v 14. He knew exactly what he was doing, now how does v 15 say that Eve would be saved?.
 
HNV - 1Ti 2:15 - but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
 
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info
 
Did Adam go to the tree to obtain the fruit as She did, no he went to her and took her sin upon himself. Don't worry about the second part of v 6 of Gen Ch 3. I will explain that later. My reason for asking this question in the first place was to find out if anyone else arrived at the same conclusion that I had. I once heard a Speaker describe Adam as "A hopeless, helpless, useless, spineless good for nothing, who did not even raise a finger to help his wife who he could clearly see was in danger of disobeying God".
 
The Speaker went on to say that "Eve at least put up token resistance, and as we know from Scripture she was deceived, we also know that Adam was not deceived, which really puts him beneath contempt".
 
All this I found difficult to accept, it did not gel, it did not seem to have the ring of truth. My approach was two fold, firstly from the Divine view point, and secondly from the Satanic view point. The Lord our God created/made all things in 6 days. His comment on the first 5 days was "It is good", regarding the 6th day He said "It is very good" This was the day on which He made man both the male, and the female.
 
I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that the making of man was for God "The supreme pinnacle of Divine creative genius". He made man in the image of God, and after His likeness, so what likeness of God does Adam display? Hopeless, helpless? Oh no never, never, not the God that I know, could we say to our Lord "Is this the best that You can do?" I think not.
 
From the Satanic view point of wishing to destroy God's creation, he had 3 possible approaches, 1, the pair when they were together, 2, the man when he was by himself, or 3, the woman when she was by herself. Now which of these 3 do you think would be the most likely to succeed from the Devil's point of view. What is needed here of course is commentary, Divine commentary not man's opinion.
 
Lets have a look then at Romans Ch 5 v 14. And also 1st Tim Ch 2 vs 13-15. We learn from Romans that Adam was a Type (Pattern) of Him who was to come, remember that The Lord Jesus who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin to save His Bride. 1st Timothy says that She (Eve) "will be saved through her child-bearing". Now how much childbearing had she done?, Non, can she fertilize herself? No.
 
Now assuming that Adam was else ware at the time of the temptation, when he returned to his wife he would be horrified to see that she had fallen into temptation, she was now cut off from him, and lost for ever, as she would be going to hell. He was still sinless, and perfect (As God had made him) and a sinless one can have no contact with sin, he loves his wife with a pure and holy love as no fallen man can have any idea of.
 
Apart from Adam and Eve, the Human race has not yet been started, and if it isn't started then the kinsman redeemer cannot be born into it. The only way in which mankind can be started, is if he becomes like her, a sinner, remember, he is not deceived, he knows just what he is doing. He does not go to the tree as she had done, but takes the fruit from her hand and partakes thereof. Symbolic of Jesus taking our sin to Himself.
 
Now what sort of likeness of God do we get. A Self sacrificing Hero who became sin for us, or a Wimp. I know which likeness I prefer, how about you? There are, however, two points that might be worth mentioning. Firstly some people will point out that Gen Ch 3 v 6b. Says that "he was with her". Well of course he was with her, how else could he have taken the fruit from her in the first place?.
 
He had to be there, why is there no mention whatsoever of Adam in all the six verses, until after the fruit was taken by Eve?. Why is The Holy Spirit telling us the obvious?. Well perhaps He is not, it might just be His rather subtle way of telling us that Adam was not there all the time.

Now the second point, Who told Adam how to save Eve?. I will tell you the answer to that one, when you tell me how Noah knew the difference between "Clean", and "Unclean" at Gen Ch 7 v 2.
 
Yours in His service.
 
Edwin.
I have actually read that before Edwin, on another topic similar to this one. But I have one major problem with what you are suggesting, and this you must consider. If Adam was in fact the hero in the whole scenario, then why was he also punished? Why did God curse Adam for a good deed? Surely God is not unjust? Of course not. No Edwin, as the bible says, because he disobeyed God and listened to his wife, he was also punished. You say to avoid human commentary, but your post is full of human commentary, your own to be exact. And so your version of events is strewn with error, and biblical inaccuracy, unless of course, as I stated earlier, God is in the habit of punishing acts of selfless love. BTW, God could have easily created another woman to be with Adam, and so Adam would not have had to do what he did to start the human race. No, he could have remained faithful to God`s command, and God could have rewarded his faithfulness and created another to be his wife. Plus, we must also consider this. There were other people on earth besides Adam and Eve, or where else would Cain have gotten his wife? If Adam and Eve produced only Cain and Abel, that would have been a stopper on procreation, don`t you think? It is quite possible that Eve had many, many children other than Cain and Abel. Genesis states that a part of Eve`s punishment was an increase of pain in childbirth, which really does suggest that childbearing had been going on before the fall, or how else could there be an increase in pain? You can only increase that which already is, that which is already existent or taking place. So I`m afraid I do not buy into your fanciful version of Genesis, because I do not believe that God (Who is love) is in the habit of punishing acts of love. God bless.

Serenity

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 01:39:08 AM »
Quote
Genesis states that a part of Eve`s punishment was an increase of pain in childbirth, which really does suggest that childbearing had been going on before the fall, or how else could there be an increase in pain? You can only increase that which already is, that which is already existent or taking place.

This stood out to me because it reminded me of another topic recently, just cant think which one.  But it was on about did eve have kids before or after the fall.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Eve's temptation.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 02:59:29 PM »
hi
jest a here few random thoughts if Adam was the pattern of the one who was to come which is of course Christ in what respect where they alike it can not be jest there human form so I think it must be there spiritual form and we know what Christ will look like at his second coming when he is united with his bride .
So the question is did Adam and Eve look   the same before the fall not jest one man and woman but Adam the head and eve the body a large number of people.
Love and Peace
Dave

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