Author Topic: One Baptism  (Read 2847 times)

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Alien-R

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 12:37:25 PM »

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This is really a subject for complete new thread, but have you ever considered that there may be a difference between new birth, which establishes our eternal state, and salvation which is an ongoing experience as we walk with God on earth. ie. God delivering from evil.

I believe that much of the biblical reference which most people attribute to the process of getting to heaven when we die, are actually about the daily walk after we are born again. Such things as water baptism has nothing to do with heaven when we die. It is about the daily walk. Baptism and communion are more about spiritual proclamations before God's throne and before the enemy.



Alien, of course you are right.  But if you read what I have said, you will see that is my main point.
However once born again, we have to live this life until we are called home. Anyone who is on a spiritual journey, rather than just marking time, will know that Satan is alive and well and doing everything to corrupt and destroy our lives.
The blood of the lamb, and the proclamation of that blood is is a major part of that battle. Communion is not just a fancy ceremony that churches do every week.

The word ''saved'' has a much broader meaning than just heaven when we are dead!

ahh yes I see what you are saying

You are not "Born again" and do not experience "new birth" every day although the "experience of salvation accompanies this

Yet salvation goes on a daily basis , whereas "born again" does not as you cannot be "born again" over and over and over ?

So in this there is a continuation of this "new birth" or an "ongoing condition" which we call "salvation"

........

This ties in with this thread where although a person is reborn "they must believe and be baptised to be saved"

Although baptism is a catalyst stemming from repentance, baptism can be said to be the "immersion" or "going deeper" into God or Jesus or an "ongoing salvation" stemming from "new birth"

In this we could say that "although we can loose our salvation as an ongoing process , we cannot loose our "new birth" ? as once resurrected into new life Luke 23:55 [spiritual ] how can a person   reappear in an old  body ? [physical ]

What do you think ?

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Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 03:52:02 PM »
ahh yes I see what you are saying

You are not "Born again" and do not experience "new birth" every day although the "experience of salvation accompanies this

Yet salvation goes on a daily basis , whereas "born again" does not as you cannot be "born again" over and over and over ?

So in this there is a continuation of this "new birth" or an "ongoing condition" which we call "salvation"

........

This ties in with this thread where although a person is reborn "they must believe and be baptised to be saved"

Although baptism is a catalyst stemming from repentance, baptism can be said to be the "immersion" or "going deeper" into God or Jesus or an "ongoing salvation" stemming from "new birth"

In this we could say that "although we can loose our salvation as an ongoing process , we cannot loose our "new birth" ? as once resurrected into new life Luke 23:55 [spiritual ] how can a person   reappear in an old  body ? [physical ]

What do you think ?

Excellent. You put it well Alien.
It really helps our understanding of what Jesus and the apostles meant when we discern the difference between new birth and the subsequent and ongoing renewal of daily salvation. Conflating the two just leads to all sorts of nonsense conclusions.
Just for reference, you will never find the word ''salvation'' in the old testament meaning anything other than deliverance from Philistine famine and plague. It's primary meaning was never getting to heaven when you die, although there may be some side reference to it somewhere.
The real meaning of the word ''salvation'' has not changed in the new covenant, other than in the mind of the evangelists.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 10:42:37 PM »
Quote Francis Drake I know what I should and should not be doing without your instruction. .

Oooooo! A bit touchy aren't we Efen?

I merely quoted  the same words you used to put me down, and you act all offended! Tut tut. I recommend you don't make comments that you can't take back.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Efengylwr71

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 11:45:38 PM »
Oooooo! A bit touchy aren't we Efen?
I merely quoted  the same words you used to put me down, and you act all offended! Tut tut. I recommend you don't make comments that you can't take back.
I am not offended in the least Lol. But when someone tells me
Quote Francis Drake
Quote
The only defense you can possibly have is the blood of the lamb and you had better testify to it,
Then that kind of comment is pushy to say the least, and that`s exactly what you were doing, being pushy and authoritative. So I merely pointed out that I don`t need instruction from you, and I don`t. And don`t accuse me of being touchy when it was you that was being touchy by responding with
Quote Francis Drake
Quote
The words here should give you a clue also.
Tut tut? That is not condescending at all is it. But that`s the offensive and sarcastic attitude you came on to this forum with, from the the time you called Colin a moron, and it hasn`t changed a bit. And I recommend that you don`t tell people what to do.

Alien-R

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2013, 01:33:59 AM »
Excellent. You put it well Alien.
It really helps our understanding of what Jesus and the apostles meant when we discern the difference between new birth and the subsequent and ongoing renewal of daily salvation. Conflating the two just leads to all sorts of nonsense conclusions.
Just for reference, you will never find the word ''salvation'' in the old testament meaning anything other than deliverance from Philistine famine and plague. It's primary meaning was never getting to heaven when you die, although there may be some side reference to it somewhere.
The real meaning of the word ''salvation'' has not changed in the new covenant, other than in the mind of the evangelists.

Quote
Just for reference, you will never find the word ''salvation'' in the old testament meaning anything other than deliverance from Philistine famine and plague. It's primary meaning was never getting to heaven when you die, although there may be some side reference to it somewhere.

Yes salvation from enemies mainly in the OT or from troubles or afflictions as a result of a "relationship" with God

Although there are plenty of example of "Righteous men" seeing God or being taken up to heaven or being made "righteous" as in Abraham, 

Quote Francis Drake I know what I should and should not be doing without your instruction. Although Paul says that we proclaim the death of the lord, that doesn`t detract from what Jesus said about "His" own body and blood. If he says you have no life in you unless you eat and drink of it, then you literally have no life in you, or Jesus is a liar. And it`s not just about being bought by the blood of Jesus, that`s correct, its about being a partaker in the blood which literally infuses spiritual life into the heart of the believer.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Jn 6:55
And so there it is. A deep and spiritual communion with our Lord through his body and blood, that literally is the life of the soul of the believer, and that believer will live because he does what Jesus instructs him to do concerning his body and blood.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1
And Jesus tells us in the 6th chapter of Johns gospel how we are to be "In him" and "He in us"
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time 1 Timothy 2:5
And so when I come before God and that day, I in him, and he in me will be my defense, and my lawyer, because we will be inseparable through the covenant in his blood, shed on the cross, and received spiritually through communion.


Quote
Although Paul says that we proclaim the death of the lord, that doesn`t detract from what Jesus said about "His" own body and blood. If he says you have no life in you unless you eat and drink of it, then you literally have no life in you, or Jesus is a liar. And it`s not just about being bought by the blood of Jesus, that`s correct, its about being a partaker in the blood which literally infuses spiritual life into the heart of the believer.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Jn 6:55

I wonder how that applies to the OT Saints ?




Efengylwr71

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013, 02:00:28 AM »
Quote Alien-R
Quote
Quote
Although Paul says that we proclaim the death of the lord, that doesn`t detract from what Jesus said about "His" own body and blood. If he says you have no life in you unless you eat and drink of it, then you literally have no life in you, or Jesus is a liar. And it`s not just about being bought by the blood of Jesus, that`s correct, its about being a partaker in the blood which literally infuses spiritual life into the heart of the believer.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Jn 6:55

I wonder how that applies to the OT Saints ?
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God?s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. 1 Peter 3:18

Alien-R

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2013, 12:46:27 PM »
Quote Alien-RFor Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God?s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. 1 Peter 3:18

 
Quote
eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience



Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

Now if we were to take verse above in a literal sense and not as a "prophetic foretype"


We must see the word "save" as a continious tense or "saving" or "being saved"

Note "saved" past tense here Titus 3:5

As we continue on "in our faith"we see that Noah [In a literal sense] left the world behind

And started out on a new journey  [ not to mention ...animals going with him]

...
I AM Saved as in

Titus 3:5

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Now "saved" I am being saved as in


1 Peter 3:21 

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Then we see that "It saves us" and not "saved us"


Now AS Noah left the "World" behind 'In his baptism' the world was condemned to death, buthe was saved , yes he and his family..see : Acts 16:33 ...who were but a few [as many are called  yet few are chosen]  to go into the ark

But what was the ongoing continuation of the prophetic foreshadow in the story of Noah ?

Well we once more have children of disobedience being born and new generations of "The world" through the children of Noah and without Noah and his baptism in water , indeed we would not be here today to "once more" follow Noah in his action

In this we see again that "we are being saved" and baptism alone does not save but "saves"....as in "being saved" on a journey

Would anyone agree with this ?



having said this , now look at It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, in 1 Peter 3:21 in this Noah was resurrected from the world and once resurrected how could this be reversed ?

Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 01:39:22 PM »
I am not offended in the least Lol. But when someone tells me
Quote Francis DrakeThen that kind of comment is pushy to say the least, and that`s exactly what you were doing, being pushy and authoritative. So I merely pointed out that I don`t need instruction from you, and I don`t. And don`t accuse me of being touchy when it was you that was being touchy by responding with
Quote Francis DrakeTut tut? That is not condescending at all is it. But that`s the offensive and sarcastic attitude you came on to this forum with, from the the time you called Colin a moron, and it hasn`t changed a bit. And I recommend that you don`t tell people what to do.

Efen, maybe we both need to backtrack. I think we have misread each other.

From what you say here, you presumed that my ''instruction'' was at aimed you, when it was directed at the imaginary person who I described had been hauled before the heavenly court of Rev12. I was merely stating that silence, or failure to present our one and only defense before the court, would give Satan the victory.

Also I have never called anyone a moron, but if you are referring to what I said to Wincam, then please read again as pasted below.

''Wincam, if I tell you that you are a total moron for writing such a stupid post, that you really have little idea of what you are saying, that you should perhaps seek a closer relationship to Jesus instead of writing such garbage, what do you make of that?
Did I write this last thought out of freewill, or did I have no choice at all?'' -


The key word deliberately used was ''if''.
His original post was proclaiming that Christians had no freewill, therefore I posed a challenge for him to decide who would be the author of such a spoof but insulting comment. Me, or God?
If as he says, Christians have no freewill, then God made me insult him.
If I exercised freewill to write the insult, then his thesis is wrong.

Now, your description of me, from my perspective fits you to a tee. For that reason I rarely enter into conversation with you. From my perspective, you rarely listen to the viewpoint of others, preferring a swift put down.
This is my perspective.
So I suggest we call a truce, and get back to discussion.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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