Author Topic: One Baptism  (Read 2850 times)

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Alien-R

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 10:45:48 AM »

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Baptism was not a new invention of John the Baptist.
 Luke11v37 And as he spoke, a certain Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he went in and sat down to eat.
v38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed before dinner.
The word ''washed'' here in the original greek is ''baptisthe'' from which elsewhere we get Baptize.

The pharisees baptized/ immersed themselves at every excuse in order to make themselves clean. That is why Jesus told them that they made the outside of the cup clean whilst the inside is full of extortion and wickedness.
Jesus was such a polite and reserved dinner guest.

Quote
The pharisees baptized/ immersed themselves at every excuse in order to make themselves clean. That is why Jesus told them that they made the outside of the cup clean whilst the inside is full of extortion and wickedness.


So baptists did'nt invent  baptism ?   :o



Ok so we have a verse like

Mark 16:16 

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

this can be read as saying :

"He who believes and is not baptised is not saved ....."

or "you are condemned until baptised"

as you are not saved until you believe and are baptised....as the "saved" comes after the former

So I wonder what "believe" means here ?

Quote
Mark 16:16 

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


So what of all those baptised before John the baptist and the resurrection ? and what of those saved before Jesus came in bodily form as a Saviour ?

Is the resurrection and salvation of those Before less than those after ?

In the same way "what of those baptised into John" or those "Baptised as Jews"
or those baptised in any other way ?"

Is it any less affective before Jesus said "believe and be baptised ?

In which case if baptism has a significance then it must have had Before also and all those pharisees would have been clean

Saved and cleansed

according to the bible they would have been !   as in Mark 16:16  :D

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Efengylwr71

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 06:45:11 PM »
Quote Alien-R
Quote
So what of all those baptised before John the baptist and the resurrection ? and what of those saved before Jesus came in bodily form as a Saviour ?
Is the resurrection and salvation of those Before less than those after ?
In the same way "what of those baptised into John" or those "Baptised as Jews"
or those baptised in any other way ?"
Is it any less affective before Jesus said "believe and be baptised ?
In which case if baptism has a significance then it must have had Before also and all those pharisees would have been clean
Saved and cleansed
according to the bible they would have been !   as in Mark 16:16 
Well I suppose it`s like grace itself. If grace is given, and then rejected, of what use is grace? I suppose the baptisms of John and the pharisees was valid enough with the right disposition, but if that wasn`t there then  what use was there in baptism, or any gift from God for that matter. The fact that someone isn`t receptive of the gifts of God, it doesn`t mean that the gift is of no worth or significance, it`s just that the recipient is unworthy of the gift, and so the gift becomes as nothing, even though it is something since it is from God after all. And so the same could be said for baptism, or grace or mercy, and all God`s gifts. And I suppose that those who lived and died before Jesus introduced his baptism, were under the old covenant, and would have been saved or condemned by it. But none of that which I just mentioned takes anything away from the significance and necessity of both spiritual and water baptism. And if it is not important or significant, then just answer me, why did Jesus even bother to say it?

Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 09:34:08 PM »
Quote Alien-RWell I suppose it`s like grace itself. If grace is given, and then rejected, of what use is grace? I suppose the baptisms of John and the pharisees was valid enough with the right disposition, but if that wasn`t there then  what use was there in baptism, or any gift from God for that matter. The fact that someone isn`t receptive of the gifts of God, it doesn`t mean that the gift is of no worth or significance, it`s just that the recipient is unworthy of the gift, and so the gift becomes as nothing, even though it is something since it is from God after all. And so the same could be said for baptism, or grace or mercy, and all God`s gifts. And I suppose that those who lived and died before Jesus introduced his baptism, were under the old covenant, and would have been saved or condemned by it. But none of that which I just mentioned takes anything away from the significance and necessity of both spiritual and water baptism. And if it is not important or significant, then just answer me, why did Jesus even bother to say it?

This is really a subject for complete new thread, but have you ever considered that there may be a difference between new birth, which establishes our eternal state, and salvation which is an ongoing experience as we walk with God on earth. ie. God delivering from evil.

I believe that much of the biblical reference which most people attribute to the process of getting to heaven when we die, are actually about the daily walk after we are born again. Such things as water baptism has nothing to do with heaven when we die. It is about the daily walk. Baptism and communion are more about spiritual proclamations before God's throne and before the enemy.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Efengylwr71

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 09:55:19 PM »
Quote Francis Drake
Quote
Baptism and communion are more about spiritual proclamations before God's throne and before the enemy.

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you". Jn 6:53
Communion is a lot more than just a proclamation, the word communion should actually give you a clue as to what it actually means.


Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 10:30:57 PM »
Quote Francis Drake
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you". Jn 6:53
Communion is a lot more than just a proclamation, the word communion should actually give you a clue as to what it actually means.


1Cor11v26. For as oft as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do proclaim the Lord's death till he comes.
The words here should give you a clue also.


Revelation12v10......................... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused us before God day and night.
v11. and they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony.........

ie. It is not about just being a blood bought son, but about testifying to being blood bought that delivers us.
Rev12v10 is a picture of a heavenly court room. Satan is the prosecutor, God is the judge, and you are being accused.
Satan is trying everything to gain the right to afflict you.
In your defense you can claim what I believe the Americans call the ''fifth amendment'', the right to remain silent. Sadly, if you do that you will find yourself handed over. You can claim innocence, again you will be handed over.
The only defense you can possibly have is the blood of the lamb and you had better testify to it, whether in prayer or in taking communion. That is your one and only testimony.
Guilty, yes, guilty your honour, but the price is already paid by the shed blood of Jesus.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Efengylwr71

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 01:39:33 AM »
Quote Francis Drake
Quote
1Cor11v26. For as oft as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do proclaim the Lord's death till he comes.
The words here should give you a clue also.
Revelation12v10......................... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused us before God day and night.
v11. and they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony.........
ie. It is not about just being a blood bought son, but about testifying to being blood bought that delivers us.
Rev12v10 is a picture of a heavenly court room. Satan is the prosecutor, God is the judge, and you are being accused.
Satan is trying everything to gain the right to afflict you.
In your defense you can claim what I believe the Americans call the ''fifth amendment'', the right to remain silent. Sadly, if you do that you will find yourself handed over. You can claim innocence, again you will be handed over.
The only defense you can possibly have is the blood of the lamb and you had better testify to it, whether in prayer or in taking communion. That is your one and only testimony.
Guilty, yes, guilty your honour, but the price is already paid by the shed blood of Jesus.
I know what I should and should not be doing without your instruction. Although Paul says that we proclaim the death of the lord, that doesn`t detract from what Jesus said about "His" own body and blood. If he says you have no life in you unless you eat and drink of it, then you literally have no life in you, or Jesus is a liar. And it`s not just about being bought by the blood of Jesus, that`s correct, its about being a partaker in the blood which literally infuses spiritual life into the heart of the believer.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. Jn 6:55
And so there it is. A deep and spiritual communion with our Lord through his body and blood, that literally is the life of the soul of the believer, and that believer will live because he does what Jesus instructs him to do concerning his body and blood.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1
And Jesus tells us in the 6th chapter of Johns gospel how we are to be "In him" and "He in us"
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time 1 Timothy 2:5
And so when I come before God and that day, I in him, and he in me will be my defense, and my lawyer, because we will be inseparable through the covenant in his blood, shed on the cross, and received spiritually through communion.

Alien-R

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Re: One Baptism
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 01:41:57 AM »
This is really a subject for complete new thread, but have you ever considered that there may be a difference between new birth, which establishes our eternal state, and salvation which is an ongoing experience as we walk with God on earth. ie. God delivering from evil.

I believe that much of the biblical reference which most people attribute to the process of getting to heaven when we die, are actually about the daily walk after we are born again. Such things as water baptism has nothing to do with heaven when we die. It is about the daily walk. Baptism and communion are more about spiritual proclamations before God's throne and before the enemy.

Quote
but have you ever considered that there may be a difference between new birth, which establishes our eternal state, and salvation which is an ongoing experience as we walk with God on earth. ie. God delivering from evil.


But does not our initial new birth save us from eternal death ?

In this I am saved yet I am being saved !


Offline francis drake

Re: One Baptism
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 07:42:07 AM »


But does not our initial new birth save us from eternal death ?

In this I am saved yet I am being saved !

Alien, of course you are right.  But if you read what I have said, you will see that is my main point.
However once born again, we have to live this life until we are called home. Anyone who is on a spiritual journey, rather than just marking time, will know that Satan is alive and well and doing everything to corrupt and destroy our lives.
The blood of the lamb, and the proclamation of that blood is is a major part of that battle. Communion is not just a fancy ceremony that churches do every week.

The word ''saved'' has a much broader meaning than just heaven when we are dead!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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