Author Topic: Was Jesus always God ?  (Read 2410 times)

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Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 05:36:50 PM »

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Alien-R.

You mention,

Yet the Father was greater than Jesus John 14:28

Perhaps what follows will shed some light on this.

The Deity of Christ, and how the Father used Him

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God, that, however, is not the point. All three persons of the Trinity are co equally God, but they are not the same, that is to say. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is that the Father first gives instructions to the Son, who then gives instructions to the Holy Spirit. Which I believe is confirmed as follows.

In verse 2 below, we are told, " the Spirit of God was hovering", that is to say awaiting instructions.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

In verses 3 & 22 below we are told, "through Him", not by Him,

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

When the second person of the Trinity became human, the Holy Spirit both, "drove", Him, see verse 12,

Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And immediately, coming up from  the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mar 1:12 Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

And was used by Him,

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And through whom He also gave instructions

Act 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

He Himself made it clear at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

As did His Father at,

Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

Jesus commenting on the above said,

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Every blessing.

Edwin.

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Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 12:21:01 AM »
Alien-R.

You mention,

Yet the Father was greater than Jesus John 14:28

Perhaps what follows will shed some light on this.

The Deity of Christ, and how the Father used Him

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God, that, however, is not the point. All three persons of the Trinity are co equally God, but they are not the same, that is to say. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is that the Father first gives instructions to the Son, who then gives instructions to the Holy Spirit. Which I believe is confirmed as follows.

In verse 2 below, we are told, " the Spirit of God was hovering", that is to say awaiting instructions.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

In verses 3 & 22 below we are told, "through Him", not by Him,

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

When the second person of the Trinity became human, the Holy Spirit both, "drove", Him, see verse 12,

Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And immediately, coming up from  the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mar 1:12 Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

And was used by Him,

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And through whom He also gave instructions

Act 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

He Himself made it clear at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

As did His Father at,

Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

Jesus commenting on the above said,

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Every blessing.

Edwin.

Quote
Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.

I found a video that might be of interest that says the opposite

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch&v=kXmkXMY_LgM[/youtube]

So rather than being three persons in one God they are the same person with three titles "The Godhead"

three in one/Father/Spirit/Son

three terms relating to the same person of God "The I Am"

God said "I Am" Exodus 3:14  Jesus said "I Am" John 18:6

So I am more inclined to believe at this moment in time that "when Jesus said " The Father is greater than I" He was speaking from His humanity..and Jesus was speaking of the time when He would be crucified and die so that the Holy Spirit would be sent "The Comforter" or Jesus [Spirit] God the Comforter, the Seed

Otherwise how could Jesus who is God be greater than Himself ?

So you have the Holy Spirit of God who is God living in you, in other words Jesus who is God...The Spirit

what do you think ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch&v=kXmkXMY_LgM

Edwin

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 01:58:41 PM »
Alien-R.

You say,

So rather than being three persons in one God they are the same person with three titles "The Godhead"

Yes, as is made clear at,

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 

However,

Jhn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Now, the only way in which He who is Spirit can experiance pain is to have a body, and that is why it is also written.

Hbr 10:5 Consequently, when Christ  came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 
Hbr 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 
Hbr 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 
Hbr 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 
Hbr 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 
Hbr 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

And therefore, "all the fullness of the Godhead" suffered the excruciating agony of death by crucifixion. 

Bless you.

Edwin.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 02:28:27 PM »
Alien-R.

You say,

So rather than being three persons in one God they are the same person with three titles "The Godhead"

Yes, as is made clear at,

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 

However,

Jhn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Now, the only way in which He who is Spirit can experiance pain is to have a body, and that is why it is also written.

Hbr 10:5 Consequently, when Christ  came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 
Hbr 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 
Hbr 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 
Hbr 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 
Hbr 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 
Hbr 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

And therefore, "all the fullness of the Godhead" suffered the excruciating agony of death by crucifixion. 

Bless you.

Edwin.

Quote
Now, the only way in which He who is Spirit can experiance pain is to have a body, and that is why it is also written.


Well God experiences pain and anger and weeps and gets jealous and has all the faculties of a human being as in "emotions"

However God taken on His own....has never come down to earth in a human body [IF He is separate from Jesus]

God is Spirit yet He has emotions

Quote
Now, the only way in which He who is Spirit can experiance pain is to have a body, and that is why it is also written.

Yes He the Spirit of God grieves when I do these that are sinful or not in His Will  :D

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 02:12:34 AM »
Quote Alien-R
Quote
So rather than being three persons in one God they are the same person with three titles "The Godhead"
three in one/Father/Spirit/Son
The holy trinity is called a mystery because it is exactly that, a mystery. The greatest theologians right down the centuries have pondered this great mystery, and none so far (as far as I know) have been able to explain or understand it, and it must be accepted by faith alone. But it seems you have the answer at last Alien, not three persons, but three titles. This violates the whole theory of the three persons in one and the mystery of the trinity at the same time. It has been universally accepted, by both protestant and Catholic theologians, that the holy trinity is three "Persons" in one God, and not three titles. I think you have tried to simplify a great and incomprehensible mystery to satisfy your own intellect there Alien, I say this with the greatest of respect of course. The trinity is three persons in one God, and has been accepted as being so since the birth of Christianity, and has never been understood because it`s a divine mystery that can not be comprehended by man.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 11:56:14 AM »
Quote
It has been universally accepted, by both protestant and Catholic theologians, that the holy trinity is three "Persons" in one God, and not three titles.

has it ? no idea about the history ...it just seems to me at this present time to be the correct theory based on the Godhead being One Godhead


No idea,


Quote
The trinity is three persons in one God, and has been accepted as being so since the birth of Christianity,

oops my goof, Im wrong again  :) o well back to the drawing board  knit:



God in three persons yes, Holy Trinity as the song goes

 I'm not daft enough to believe that God was NOT three ,as this is portrayed in the baptism of Jesus and the resurrection being rised by the Holy Spirit and Jesus talking to His Father

But okay ... One God and three names gives an over simplification but it helps me understand it better , so it must be good,

If anyone can give a better understanding then Im all ears  mobile:

But dun make it too complex

I think its a great way of explanation and comes the nearest that Ive seen so far using our language and human understanding, but I don't mind getting it wrong  and I'm not frightened of backtracking  :D

but in the same way neither is God three separate persons working individually


Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 09:28:59 PM »
Quote Alien-R
Quote
But okay ... One God and three names gives an over simplification but it helps me understand it better , so it must be good,
It is called the mystery of the holy trinity because "It can`t" be understood, and must be accepted by faith alone. To simplify it is to deny the truth of it, and this is what happens when human minds (Such as mine and yours) try to understand something that cannot be understood. Not everything can be understood, especially the things of God, and when we try to understand that which can`t be understood we fall into error, because we have no idea what we are talking about, and that includes you, me, and everyone on this planet. Atheists fall for exactly the same thing, God can`t be understood, or measured, or analyzed, and so he doesn`t exist. We do exactly the same thing as the atheist, we try to understand, and analyze the mysteries of God, and fall into error exactly the same way that the atheist does. Except we don`t deny his existence, we fall into the error if misinterpreting the mysteries of God, and we misinterpret them because they cannot be interpreted. So I think that a little humility all round is needed here on this subject of the trinity, because we can discuss it, or analyze it, but we will NEVER understand it.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 12:10:58 AM »
Aye and agreed, which is why I typed at the beginning of this topic

Quote
A Trinity topic, one that has confused mankind since we first began to understand the Trinity  :)

John 3:16 For God sent His only Son

Yet He was God

I look forward to suggestions and concepts on this one

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