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Edwin

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Was Jesus always God ?
« on: May 31, 2013, 11:45:16 AM »

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Was Jesus always God ?

Let me first of all make it clear that I have no problem with the "Deity of Christ". My understanding is that in eternity, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been God, and always will be God. Never at any time in eternity did Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity.

However, what we are now about to consider is not His existence in eternity, but His human life of some 33+ years here on earth some 2,000 years ago.

Did Jesus as a human being claim to be God ?

It would appear so from,

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jhn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one."

At John Ch 14 v 9, Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I believe that here Jesus identifies Himself the speaker in the verse below.

ESV - Exd 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."* And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Footnote:
* Or I AM WHAT I AM, or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE

But then what about ?

John 5:30. I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. ESV.

1. How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".

2. How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God take instruction from?

3. Since when did God not seek His own will?

4. Who sent God?

Your help would be most appreciated.

Edwin.




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Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 12:08:57 PM »
Was Jesus always God ?

Let me first of all make it clear that I have no problem with the "Deity of Christ". My understanding is that in eternity, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been God, and always will be God. Never at any time in eternity did Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity.

However, what we are now about to consider is not His existence in eternity, but His human life of some 33+ years here on earth some 2,000 years ago.

Did Jesus as a human being claim to be God ?

It would appear so from,

Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jhn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one."

At John Ch 14 v 9, Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I believe that here Jesus identifies Himself the speaker in the verse below.

ESV - Exd 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."* And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Footnote:
* Or I AM WHAT I AM, or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE

But then what about ?

John 5:30. I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. ESV.

1. How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".

2. How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God take instruction from?

3. Since when did God not seek His own will?

4. Who sent God?

Your help would be most appreciated.

Edwin.

Quote
1. How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".

2. How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God take instruction from?

3. Since when did God not seek His own will?

4. Who sent God?



A Trinity topic, one that has confused mankind since we first began to understand the Trinity  :)

John 3:16 For God sent His only Son

Yet He was God

I look forward to suggestions and concepts on this one

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 12:58:15 PM »
What we must understand is that time is a part of eternity, and not separate. And Jesus said "I can do nothing on my own" because he is indelibly (Through the trinity) connected to the father, and so what he sees the father doing, he does also. And it is the father who sent the son, and since they are one and the same God, you could correctly say that God sent himself, for as Jesus said "The father and I are one" But of course, Jesus was fully man as well, and as a man he could of chosen to live out a natural life. And as a man he said "I have not come to do my own will" And as the son of God he said " but the will of him who sent me" Because he was God and man, as was revealed in the transfiguration. And if he was just a man (On earth that is) then the transfiguration would not have been possible, since he would have been emptied of his divinity. I think the transfiguration proves that he was not emptied of his divinity. I think that the real issue is chiefly to accept the mystery of the trinity, which can never be understood by the human mind, or else we fall into the trap of "Three Gods" or "The father creating the son" theologies.

Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 01:25:00 PM »
Just throwing in a few thoughts



Jesus was Equal with God John 5:18

John 10:30 Jesus being One with God 

Jesus Was God John 18:6 

Being in the "Form" of God Philippians 2:6 did not consider equality with God but took on the  "Form" of a servant

Saying He was "God" was blasphemy Mark 2:7   John 10:33

Which took God to the Cross "as a Lamb to the slaughter" yet not God as God cannot die, but
merely the "serving" body of the "Servant King"

Yet the Father was greater than Jesus John 14:28

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »
Quote Alien-R
Quote
Yet the Father was greater than Jesus John 14:28
And yet the father and the son are one, bamboozling or what?
I think when Jesus said "The father is greater than I"  I think that he was speaking of his humanity, and would not deem his humanity as equal to divinity, which of course is correct. Jesus also deemed the flesh as nothing.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Jn 6:63
So he attributed no importance to the flesh, and also he reveals himself as God in the flesh by saying that his words are spirit and life, and since the words came out of "His mouth" we can safely assume "He" was "God in the flesh"
He could forgive sins as a man, because he was "God and man" at the same time, or otherwise he would have never "As a man" made such a claim.

Serenity

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Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 03:38:11 PM »
Whenever i come across this 'type' of topic, it always brings my mind back to Hebrews 1, which was the scripture that ultimately helped me understand somewhat, about the Trinity.  It shows Father God if you will, calling Jesus...God and Lord.

3 The Son is the radiance of God?s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

?You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father?[a]?

Or again,

?I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

?Let all God?s angels worship him.?[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

?He makes his angels spirits,
    and his servants flames of fire.?[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

?Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.?
[e]

10 He also says,

?In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.?[f]

Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 09:08:39 PM »
Greetings, all!

I present you with an oft-overlooked verse ...
"... if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
(God told Moses that I AM was His name forever Exodus 3:14-15)

Also, we have ...
"When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man, then (at the resurrection) you will know that I AM  John 8:28
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58
"... when it (His betrayal) does come to pass, you may believe that I AM. John 13:19
"Now when He said to them, I AM, they drew back and fell to the ground. John 18:6
"I have told you that I AM. John 18:8
"Jesus said to her, I who speak to you AM. John 4:26

None of the 7 verses above have "he" after "I AM" in the original Greek.
So, many of the English translations have just inserted the "he" for readability.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus always God ?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 09:48:04 PM »
Greetings, all!

I present you with an oft-overlooked verse ...
"... if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
(God told Moses that I AM was His name forever Exodus 3:14-15)

Also, we have ...
"When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man, then (at the resurrection) you will know that I AM  John 8:28
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58
"... when it (His betrayal) does come to pass, you may believe that I AM. John 13:19
"Now when He said to them, I AM, they drew back and fell to the ground. John 18:6
"I have told you that I AM. John 18:8
"Jesus said to her, I who speak to you AM. John 4:26

None of the 7 verses above have "he" after "I AM" in the original Greek.
So, many of the English translations have just inserted the "he" for readability.

Excellent verse evangelist, can't say Ive noticed John 8:24 before

I,ll have a look later , must get some food first ...I,ll be back shortly

seems quiet here tonight...must  be friday   :)

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