Author Topic: Could Jesus Sin ?  (Read 2766 times)

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Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 08:34:52 PM »

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Quote Alien-R
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I suppose it depends how much emphasis you put on
1. Jesus 's humanity
2. Jesus's Divinity
If you put to much emphasis on one, you detract from the other, and vice versa. Jesus is equally both God and man, to emphasize to much on the man is to diminish his divinity, to emphasize to much on his divinity is to diminish his humanity. You have to accept both in equal measure, or you open the door to theories like "Jesus could have sinned" and so forth. The kenotic heresy is very dangerous, and leads one down the road to complete Arianism, the separation of Christ from divinity, or the oneness of the Father and the son. When you do that, the whole concept of the trinity falls apart, even though Kenoticists try to maintain the trinity, and the divinity of Christ. But in truth it just doesn`t work. By the way, this theory was started in the late 1800`s in Germany by Gottfried Thomasius (1802-75), a Lutheran theologian. This obviously contradicts nearly 2000 years of sound Christian doctrine and theology.

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Alien-R

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 09:44:40 PM »
Kenosis sounds like a "condition"   :) nope I not heard of that one

So one thing that was swimming in my head while roaming through this topic was

Philippians 2:7 Ive heard this preached that Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity 

But rather it can be seen as made himself of no reputation;

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2013, 10:18:13 PM »
Kenosis sounds like a "condition"   :) nope I not heard of that one
So one thing that was swimming in my head while roaming through this topic was
Philippians 2:7 Ive heard this preached that Jesus emptied Himself of His divinity 
But rather it can be seen as made himself of no reputation;
Amen Alien. Rather he came as one who serves, rather than to be served. But that does not empty himself of his divinity
But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.? Mt 20:26.
I also believe that he was setting an example for all of humanity, so that all may humble themselves before God, as he himself (In his humanity) did.
The definition of Kenosis - Kenosis (from the Greek word for emptiness κένωσις (kenōsis) is the 'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God's divine will.
Nothing wrong with that for us mere mortals. But how can God empty himself of God? There is an impossible paradox, and God would cease to exist as God, and the universe which is held together by himself would collapse into nothing. God is God, and God is God is God forever amen. Glory be to God, forever Amen.

thelowlyfisherman

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2013, 03:38:35 AM »
"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

You are reading into it what you want to see. This is what he said.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2013, 05:22:22 AM »
"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
You are reading into it what you want to see. This is what he said.
I and the Father are one.? Jn 10:30.
You are reading into it what you want to see. You deny the father and the son by your statement.
Tell me, what would the will of Jesus have been? as God and man, which he was. Would it have been to go out partying and getting drunk, and maybe chasing women and getting into fights, and maybe lying through the back of his teeth? Tell me, what would the will of Jesus have been, apart from the father. By your kenotic heresy, you deny the triune God, and make a mere man of Jesus, who was "The word become flesh" But it`s quite convenient for you to skip over these fundamental truths isn`t it. God the father sent the son into the world to pay the price for our sin, and he didn`t have to do it did he? And in that he would have been quite justified to refuse to do so, for we all do deserve to go to hell for our sins. So Jesus would have been quite within his rights as the second person of the trinity to stay in heaven and leave us all to it. But no, his will was eternally bound by love to the father, so at the fathers request, he came to do his will. When he speaks of his own will, he speaks as a man, and when he says he has come not to do his will, but the will of the father, he speaks as the divine son of God. The trouble that you are all having (And most theologians agree with me) is that you are separating Jesus the man, and Jesus the divine son of God. In short, a Kenotic heresy. And you accuse me of subtleties. Did you even bother to look into the link that I left on one of my posts,? if not, the here it is again.

http://kenosis.info/index.shtml
In fact here`s another one.
http://carm.org/kenosis
Do NOT try and convert me to you erroneous theology. Got it.
http://kenosis.info/index.shtml
http://carm.org/kenosis

Edwin

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2013, 03:40:10 PM »
Efengylwr71.
 
Let me amplify the following,
 
"I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me". 

"My own will" must be different to "the will of him who sent me" otherwise what Jesus said here makes no sense. And anything that is not consistent with Gods will must be sin.

In other words, Jesus is saying, I seek not to sin, but to do my Fathers will.

His Fathers response was to strengthening him, as is made clear in the next verse. 

Luk 22:43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. 

Edwin.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2013, 09:09:32 PM »
Listen, You are all just skipping over the points that I make, and maintaining your own. If "The father and the son are one" then that means the son cannot sin. If you imply that the son can sin whilst being one with the father, then you imply that the father can sin also, this is blasphemy. When Jesus says that he has not come to do his own will, he`s saying that he has not come into this world to just live out a natural life, as others do. This however does not imply that he could have sinned. Like I said before, he could have come into this world, got married, had children, kept on being a carpenter and whatever else men might do in this world. Or he could have chosen to stay in heaven, and not even come to the earth at all. Yes indeed, he could have chosen to do all that, and he would have been quite justified in doing so, for he did not have to die for us, and atone for our sins. But that does not suggest that he could have sinned, it just means that he chose not to live out a natural kind of life, as men usually do. And like I said, even if he had, he would not have sinned. So let me reiterate, the father and the son are one, meaning Jesus cannot sin, because he is the divine son of God. If Jesus (As the divine son of God) can indeed sin, then so can the father, for they are one. This theology leaves you with no other choice than to separate Jesus the man from his divinity, which is exactly what you are doing. If Jesus was not divine, or emptied himself of his divinity, then what was the transfiguration all about. Peter, James and John saw what was hidden in the flesh of Christ, the divine son of God. Jesus did this to show his disciples that he was not merely a prophet, but God the son in the flesh, and this is what you are all basically denying, or did the son of God just pop in for a moment to see how the son of man was doing? Can`t you see how absurd it is to say what you are saying. In short, Jesus could have chosen to live out his natural life, but that does not mean he could have sinned. Are you all too stubborn and proud to admit your error.

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