Author Topic: Could Jesus Sin ?  (Read 2765 times)

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thelowlyfisherman

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2013, 01:57:07 AM »

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Jesus had "free will ?"
He was fully human. Of course He had free will. Why do you think Satan tempted Him in the wilderness? Kind of futile if He couldn't?
Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage ; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
If He had no free will there wasn't much to overcome, was there?

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Offline francis drake

Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2013, 09:57:20 AM »
Quote
I just thought I`d answer a few more of your arguments Francis, since there were so many I couldn`t do it all in one go.
Quote Francis drakeIt`s not wide of the mark Francis. Satan might of known something of Christ coming into the world through observing the times in accordance with scripture, but he didn`t know who Jesus the infant was, or he wouldn`t of (Through king Herod) ordered the slaughter of the infants under the age of two to ensure that he would get to him. So although Satan had an idea that Christ had come into the world, he had no idea who he was.

This is plain nonsense. Satan knew exactly who Jesus was and where he was at all times. His birth had been announced in the heavens and on earth. There had been all sorts of outlandish and outrageous public events surrounding his birth. Wise men came from the east bearing gifts.
These guys didn't quietly mingle with the crowds on an El Al flight with the Gold, Frankincense, and Myrrh hidden in their flight bags. The wise men were big league players and didn't travel light, they most likely came with a camel train of many soldiers and servants to protect both themselves and their gifts. They naturally went to Jerusalem because they were looking for the king of the Jews. That is why they created such a major crisis there.
Matthew chapter2-
v3. When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
v4. When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born.


These wise men caused major trouble for the King, his palace, all Jerusalem, all the chief priests and scribes. Everyone knew what was happening, yet you still claim that Satan didn't know! I don't think!!!!
The scribes told them all that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem, so if they knew, so did Satan. If he didn't know where Bethlehem was, then all he had to do was hitch a ride on one of the camels!

From the very beginning, Satan had one, and only one, overriding interest. That was to destroy the coming King. To imagine that Satan didn't follow every smallest detail of all and everything that happened around this Christ child, is absurd. Maybe you need to rethink a few things.
Quote
Quote Francis drakeNo, it was Jesus the divine son of God that drove out the demons. What did one man who was possessed say to Jesus?
And crying out with a loud voice, he said, ?What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.? Mk 5:7. So even the demons knew that Jesus was God on earth (After the temptation) And when Jesus drove out demons, he did not do it in his father`s name, but directly.

Efen, why do you insist on openly denying scripture? Referring to the event you originally described, when they accused Jesus of casting demons out by Beelzebub He tells them that he casts demons out by the power of the Holy Spirit, ie. not directly, not his own power!
Matt12v28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This speaks for itself with clarity and completely refutes what you keep saying, and the same is true in Mark5v7.
Jesus always operated in the power of the Holy Spirit. In contrast, nothing you have written here gives any evidence whatsoever that Jesus operated in his own Godhead power.



Quote
And another example of Jesus showing his Godhead authority was when he said.
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ?Son, your sins are forgiven.? Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, ?Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?? And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, ?Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ?Your sins are forgiven,? or to say, ?Rise, take up your bed and walk?? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins??he said to the paralytic? ?I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.
[/color] Mk 2:5
So that is a perfect example of Jesus` authority as "Son of God" on earth, and he healed him directly without invoking the name of his father in heaven. You CANNOT separate Jesus the man, from Jesus the divine son of God on earth, you are quite wrong Francis.
Efen, you have deliberately misquoted the verse, which clearly states that the Son of man has authority, It does not say, ''the Son of God has authority'' as you keep claiming.

Efen, you need to understand that if He was to redeem us, it was utterly essential that Jesus never did anything at all from his position as God the creator. Jesus came as the second Adam, therefore he must walk the journey as a man.
John5v19. Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Did you read that Efen, the son can do nothing of himself!

If you don't understand the necessity of this, then you have no idea of redemption, and the substitutionary sacrifice Jesus had to make, as a man, for Adam and for all Adamic mankind.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2013, 01:05:53 PM »
Quote Francis drake
Quote
These wise men caused major trouble for the King, his palace, all Jerusalem, all the chief priests and scribes. Everyone knew what was happening, yet you still claim that Satan didn't know! I don't think!!!!
The scribes told them all that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem, so if they knew, so did Satan. If he didn't know where Bethlehem was, then all he had to do was hitch a ride on one of the camels!
From the very beginning, Satan had one, and only one, overriding interest. That was to destroy the coming King. To imagine that Satan didn't follow every smallest detail of all and everything that happened around this Christ child, is absurd. Maybe you need to rethink a few things.
I think you are attributing to much power and knowledge to Satan. Satan didn`t know everything, and he still doesn`t know everything. Joseph was warned in a dream to flee to Egypt, because Herod had come to understand that the messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, hence the massacre of the innocents. Satan was working through king Herod was he not? Don`t you think that Satan would have tried to kill Jesus at his very birth, most certainly he would have, and that`s what he tried to do through king Herod.
Quote Francis drake
Quote
Efen, why do you insist on openly denying scripture? Referring to the event you originally described, when they accused Jesus of casting demons out by Beelzebub He tells them that he casts demons out by the power of the Holy Spirit, ie. not directly, not his own power!
Matt12v28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This speaks for itself with clarity and completely refutes what you keep saying, and the same is true in Mark5v7.
Jesus always operated in the power of the Holy Spirit. In contrast, nothing you have written here gives any evidence whatsoever that Jesus operated in his own Godhead power.
Why do you accuse me of something I`m not doing, I`m not openly denying scripture. All I`m saying is when I referred to Jesus casting out demons, the demons addressed him as "Son of the most high" If that`s not a statement that Jesus is indeed the son of God on earth, then I don`t know what is, and if you deny that then it is you that is openly denying scripture as you most eloquently stated.
Quote Francis drake
Quote
Efen, you have deliberately misquoted the verse, which clearly states that the Son of man has authority, It does not say, ''the Son of God has authority'' as you keep claiming.
Efen, you need to understand that if He was to redeem us, it was utterly essential that Jesus never did anything at all from his position as God the creator. Jesus came as the second Adam, therefore he must walk the journey as a man.
John5v19. Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Did you read that Efen, the son can do nothing of himself!
If you don't understand the necessity of this, then you have no idea of redemption, and the substitutionary sacrifice Jesus had to make, as a man, for Adam and for all Adamic mankind.
You once quoted, that Jesus did not have authority until after his resurrection, I was merely pointing out that Jesus had authority before that time. I did not mean to misquote, but wouldn`t you agree that the son of man is the son of God. But you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels Francis.
This was your quote
Quote
Matt28v18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them saying, All authority is given unto me in Heaven and Earth.
This was after the resurrection not before!
In reference to the son of man the prophet Daniel says.
I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
 And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13.
Francis, what you must understand is that Jesus, the son of man, the son of God or whatever else you may call him, was the son of God on earth, again I will give you a verse that you quite conveniently ignored.
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." Jn 10:8
If Jesus was a mere man, how could he possibly manage to do that, and he received that power from his father as the son of God, for no other ordinary son of man could have raised himself from the dead, would you at least agree with that? And note that he had that authority before his resurrection

Quote Francis drake
Quote
"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
You quoted that verse Francis, and of course that is true. But Jesus also said  "I and the Father are one." Jn 10:30 which again you conveniently overlooked. God the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one and the same God, and you can`t separate them, which is what you are doing, or are you a unitarian.
Here`s just a few verses stating that Jesus is the son of God on earth.
 "Truly, Truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am". Jn 8:58
 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed" And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven. Mk 14:61
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Tim. 3:16)
 "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," Col. 2:9.
.

Listen I do not agree with you Francis, and to say that I have no concept of redemption is frankly quite insulting, but that`s nothing new for you. This has turned more into a battle of wills than a theological discussion. I think you are in great error by separating Jesus the man, from Jesus the divine son of God, so shall we just leave it at that?

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2013, 07:55:08 PM »
He was fully human. Of course He had free will. Why do you think Satan tempted Him in the wilderness? Kind of futile if He couldn't?
Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage ; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
If He had no free will there wasn't much to overcome, was there?
None of that implies that Jesus could sin. Do you think that when he was tempted he had some kind of inner struggle as we do? If that`s what you are implying then you accuse Jesus of having darkness within himself that he had to somehow contend with, that`s very dangerous ground to walk on Fisherman.

thelowlyfisherman

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2013, 08:42:39 PM »
None of that implies that Jesus could sin. Do you think that when he was tempted he had some kind of inner struggle as we do? If that`s what you are implying then you accuse Jesus of having darkness within himself that he had to somehow contend with, that`s very dangerous ground to walk on Fisherman.
Lets just get one thing straight! I accused nobody of anything. You, are falsely accusing me! There are few capable of such a subtle twist. There is dangerous ground being tread.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2013, 09:20:12 PM »
Lets just get one thing straight! I accused nobody of anything. You, are falsely accusing me! There are few capable of such a subtle twist. There is dangerous ground being tread.
Then I apologize Fisherman. I`m just  unclear on what you are implying when you say that Jesus overcame. He overcame because he had no sin in him, and although as a man he could be tempted, as God he could not give in to it. There is a lot of confusion on this subject, and varying opinions are flying around like bullets. From research that I have been doing on this since this subject started, from what I gather, most theologians are in agreement that Jesus could not sin, and that he was fully God and fully man at the same time, and the alternative that is being suggested is bordering on arian heresy. And though it may be a bit strong to say that, it is fair to say that it is certainly kenotic. And note Fisherman, I said "If that`s what you are implying" So I wasn`t categorically accusing you, rather I was asking you a question, so maybe it is you that is being subtle. But again, if you feel that I offended you, I apologize.

thelowlyfisherman

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
He was living in the same world, with the same free will, and with the same devil trying to trip Him up.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Could Jesus Sin ?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2013, 01:37:23 PM »
He was living in the same world, with the same free will, and with the same devil trying to trip Him up.
Of course he was Fisherman, but with one exception, he was God in the flesh, and because of that he could not be tripped up.
 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". John 1.1 Jesus IS the word, yes?
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" Jn 1:14. So the word IS God, and became flesh. God in the form of man. And because Jesus IS God, he cannot sin, and nor could he ever. Just because Jesus was tempted as a man, it doesn`t mean that somehow he had some inner conflict to deal with, as we do.
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. James 1:14. So therefore Jesus` temptation was not like ours, in that Satan was appealing to some inner desire to sin, for as God in the flesh he had no sin in him, nor the propensity to do so.

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