Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3018 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Edwin

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 10:41:38 PM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

You ask,

Was Jesus without sin or able to sin

He was able to sin, but always chose not to sin. As is made clear in the following.

Luk 22:42 saying, ?Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.?


Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 12:04:38 AM »
You ask,

Was Jesus without sin or able to sin

He was able to sin, but always chose not to sin. As is made clear in the following.

Luk 22:42 saying, ?Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.?
That is a complete and utter assumption. Why do you assume from that particular verse that Jesus was asking the father to help him not to sin. Your thinking is completely fallacious. Would he have sinned if he`d of walked away from what God was asking of him? No. And why one might ask? The answer is simple, because those who do evil deserve to be punished, and it would have been no evil to let that punishment fall on us. It beggars belief that some of you can think that pure light has the potential to be darkness. It is logically fallacious to think such a thing. The fact that Jesus could of opted out of his mission doesn`t in any shape or form mean that he could have sinned. And so if Jesus is the light of the world, and the son of light, and "In him there is no darkness" then how could he have sinned? It doesn`t make sense, and the notion is heretical to say the least.

Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 12:34:18 AM »
That is a complete and utter assumption. Why do you assume from that particular verse that Jesus was asking the father to help him not to sin. Your thinking is completely fallacious. Would he have sinned if he`d of walked away from what God was asking of him? No. And why one might ask? The answer is simple, because those who do evil deserve to be punished, and it would have been no evil to let that punishment fall on us. It beggars belief that some of you can think that pure light has the potential to be darkness. It is logically fallacious to think such a thing. The fact that Jesus could of opted out of his mission doesn`t in any shape or form mean that he could have sinned. And so if Jesus is the light of the world, and the son of light, and "In him there is no darkness" then how could he have sinned? It doesn`t make sense, and the notion is heretical to say the least.

Heretical? For someone to commit heresy wouldn't it be necessary for the person to know before he spoke that his words would constitute heresy? The heresy would occur then when he went ahead and made the contemplated statement in spite of his knowledge.

As to the question of the OP and whether Jesus could have sinned, I believe that as a man of flesh subject to the same lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life as the rest of us fleshly beings, he could have, but then again he could not. He could not, not because of a physical inability but because of a perfect knowledge of the consequences if he did. Unlike you and I, Jesus did not live by faith, but by knowledge. We know some things but much of our walk with God is by faith. Jesus was beyond faith. We are not. We must lean heavily on faith, for there are some things that we simply do not know.

Can we ever get to a point where our knowledge of God has completely replaced our faith toward and in God?

Jesus was not being tested or tried. We are. Remember Thomas? He doubted, but Jesus helped him out, but he also said to him:


"...Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29




Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 02:13:56 AM »
Heretical? For someone to commit heresy wouldn't it be necessary for the person to know before he spoke that his words would constitute heresy? The heresy would occur then when he went ahead and made the contemplated statement in spite of his knowledge.

As to the question of the OP and whether Jesus could have sinned, I believe that as a man of flesh subject to the same lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life as the rest of us fleshly beings, he could have, but then again he could not. He could not, not because of a physical inability but because of a perfect knowledge of the consequences if he did. Unlike you and I, Jesus did not live by faith, but by knowledge. We know some things but much of our walk with God is by faith. Jesus was beyond faith. We are not. We must lean heavily on faith, for there are some things that we simply do not know.

Can we ever get to a point where our knowledge of God has completely replaced our faith toward and in God?

Jesus was not being tested or tried. We are. Remember Thomas? He doubted, but Jesus helped him out, but he also said to him:


"...Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29


Not necessarily. It is quite possible for someone to be in heresy and not know it. Of course those who are guilty of heresy don`t know they`re in error because they believe what they believe to be true. Remember that Jesus was born without sin from a virginal woman, and so he would not have had all the lusts of the flesh that the rest of humanity is subject to. And where in the bible does it say that Jesus didn`t rely on faith. If we are made in the image of God (Reflecting every aspect of his nature, except we are sinful and he is not) then it would stand to reason that he also operates on the basis of faith, hope and charity. These are the things that we must think about before making erroneous claims. The principles of logic apply to the spiritual as well as to the physical. We can`t speak in contradictory terms and expect to get things right. If God is light, then how can he produce darkness? Just think about it logically. If God could produce works of darkness, then that would mean that he is both darkness and light. But that`s not what the scriptures say at all. So the notion that Jesus could have sinned is not logical, and certainly isn`t scriptural, unless you cherry pick at certain verses that you think would justify that viewpoint. And I don`t know where you got the idea that Jesus wasn`t tried and tested as we are, when scripture clearly states he was. That of course doesn`t mean that he could have sinned, nor does it imply that he could have sinned. All it proves is that Satan tried Jesus to see if he would sin, and to find out who he really was. Because Satan (Not knowing everything like God) wanted to know if Jesus was really the son of God. Because in the temptation of Jesus in the desert, Satan kept asking Jesus "If you are the son of God" And to think that Satan knew before hand that he was the son of God attributes way to much power and knowledge to an essentially limited entity. And so I will believe that Jesus could have sinned, when you can prove to me that light can potentially become darkness.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 02:19:33 AM »
Do you think that unlike flesh ...Jesus had other knowledge unlike us ?

So He walked in that knowledge ?

Instead of faith ?

for example : Luke 10:18

 
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

we  cannot lay claim to this



Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 02:25:52 AM »
Remember that Satan went after Jesus in the desert "After" the proclamation of the holy spirit when he was baptized by John. Therefore Satan wasn`t sure about the identity of Jesus until the holy spirit proclaimed it. Satan would have seen the proclamation and gone after Jesus to see if this was indeed true or not. After failing with Jesus (because he succeeded with everyone else) only then did Satan know for sure who Jesus was.

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 02:49:00 AM »
I also find it remarkable that you believe that Jesus could have sinned, and yet had no need of faith. And so you think that Jesus in his humanity could have opted to sin, but that as a human being had no need of faith. That is so contradictory, and fraught with double standard. After all what is true faith? True faith is "Knowing" that what you ask of God, will be done. So if you think that Jesus just knew, and needed not faith, consider that true faith is knowing. We are the image of God in every respect apart from sin. Jesus in his humanity would indeed have needed faith to be like us, and to empathise with those who lack it. Remember faith is a virtue, and not a compensation for those who do not have perfect knowledge.

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !