Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3737 times)

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Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2013, 10:34:01 PM »

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Thank you Efengylwr71 for your ? Reply #55 of: Today at 08:12:28 PM ?

In which you say,

"I agree with you a 100% there Edwin."

May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.

Edwin.


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Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2013, 01:35:13 PM »
Efengylwr71.
 
I refer to your  Reply #52

In which you say,

"I think you`re a little confused about the trinity Edwin. You must remember that the trinity is three distinct persons in one God, they are three, and yet they are one. This is the mystery of the trinity."

Please have a look at the following which indicates my understanding of the Trinity, and the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.

Jesus is God, but He is also man at the same time. Have a look at Isaiah Ch 48 vs 12-16, but don't read the whole of v 16, just yet, read only, "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there" (ESV).
 
Now ask yourself, Who is speaking?, the answer can only be, the Lord our GOD, now read the rest of v 16, "And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.". It is clear then that the one speaking in the first part of this verse must be our Lord Jesus, and none other.. An expanded version follows.
 
Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The Answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.
 
Isa 48:12   "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13   Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14   "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15   I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16   "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. (NKJV).
 
Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking.  "And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."
 
Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.
 
Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."
 
Could this verse I wonder be what Jesus had in mind when He said.
 
Jhn 20:21   So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Jhn 20:22   And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
 
Now have a look at John Ch 8, verse 58. Here Jesus identifies Himself as "I AM", the two words are, "ego eimi", and are taken from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the OT made about 300 BC.
 
These two words are taken from Exodus Ch 3 v 14, where God told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel. I AM has sent me to you"... This is the most Sacred, and Holy name/description of the Lord our God it means "I HAVE BEEN WHAT I HAVE BEEN,I AM THAT/WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE". This Title was also understood by the Jews to mean "The perpetually self revealing all existent one".
 
It was considered so sacred by the Jews, that they were forbidden to pronounce it, when reading Scripture publicly.
 
There was no doubt in the minds of those who heard Jesus, that He was claiming to be God.
 
John 10:17-18. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
 
Note. Only God can raise Himself back from the dead.
 
Who did Isaiah really see?
 
Isa 6:1 IN the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts."
 
John referring to this passage said.
 
Jhn 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
Jhn 12:38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"*
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
Jhn 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."*
Jhn 12:41 These things Isaiah said when* he saw His glory and spoke of Him
 
So then just who did Isaiah see?
 
Jhn 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
Jhn 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
 
Have a look at the verses bellow, and my comments that follow.
 
Rev 22:8   I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9   but he said to me, You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.
 
Rev 1:12   Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13   and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14   The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15   his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16   In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17   When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, Fear not, I am the first and the last,
 
When John worshiped the angel, at Rev 22:8, he was told not to do so, but to worship God..  It is abundantly clear that the person described at, Rev 1:12-16, is none other than Jesus Himself,  who, you will note does, not rebuke him, but accepts john's worship, and goes on to say that He is, "the first and the last,".  This title, or if you prefer, this description is applicable only to Almighty God, the LORD, see the verses from Isaiah, bellow.
 
Isa 44:6   "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 43:11   I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isa 48:12   "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
 
Now, Salvation.
 
Mat 1:21   "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."
 
Jesus is the savior, but as, Isa 43:11, above says, "I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.", so they must both be the same, and therefore Jesus is God. 
 
Now, what about, "John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!",  It is possible of course that Thomas made a mistake, but if he did, why did Jesus not correct him, as the angel did at Rev 22:9,, remember, the very first example given above. Jesus accepted being referred to as, "My Lord and my God!", because that is exactly what He is, "My Lord and my God!".
 
It is clear from the Scripture passage bellow that, "thirty shekels of silver", is the price, or value of a dead slave. When Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
Matt 26:15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.. They were in effect saying that in their estimation, Jesus had about as much value as a dead slave. In other words, they were both insulting and contemptuous of him.
   
Ex 21:28 "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Ex 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
Ex 21:30 "If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him.
Ex 21:31 "Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.
Ex 21:32 "If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
 
This contemptuous insult is reflected in our LORD's words, "{that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them."  as bellow.
 
NASB - Zec 11:13 - Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, {that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty {shekels} of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Now what about
 
NKJV - Zec 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
 
NIV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
 
ESV - Zec 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
 
Note.  "then they will look on Me whom they pierced", and  "They will look on me, the one they have pierced", and, "when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
 
I do not see how it is possible to avoid the conclusion that the,  "Me", "I", and "Him". are one and the same person?  Note also that ESV, uses, "on me, on him whom they have pierced".
 
I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that when Paul wrote.
 
Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
He had in mind, Joel 2:32, three translations of which are given bellow.
 
NKJV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
 
NIV - Joe 2:32 - And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
 
ESV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
 
In other words, Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt, was declaring that Jesus is God.
 
As I have said before, and will no doubt say again, don't try to understand it, just believe it, God has given you the faith to believe, so use it.
 
The human mind is totally incapable of comprehending the Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus, so don't try. Remember "Without faith, it is impossible to please God". Better rendered as "Without exercising faith".

Bless you.

Edwin.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2013, 01:28:10 AM »
Edwin, honestly. That post is way too long for me to bothered to read it all, try and keep it succinct. No disrespect meant.

Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2013, 05:44:05 PM »
Efengylwr71.

Thank you for your above post, in which you say,

"Edwin, honestly. That post is way too long for me to bothered to read it all, try and keep it succinct. No disrespect meant."

Sorry about that, but it was intended to put my next post into it's correct perspective.

I will let you have a shortened version of it as follows.

Phil 2:5-9.
 
Let me first of all make it clear that I have no problem with the "Deity of Christ".   My understanding is that in eternity, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been God, and always will be God.  Never at any time in eternity did Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity. 
 
However, what we are now about to consider is not His existence in eternity, but His human life of 33+ years here on earth some 2,000 years ago.
 
Philippians 2:5-9 & 12-13, (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
 
Christ's Humility and Exaltation
 
5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. a
7 Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death?even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name,
 
Footnote: a verse 6 Or to be grasped, or to be held on to
 
It has been said that we are not told just what it was, of which our Lord Jesus, "emptied himself ", in verse 7, I do not in fact agree with this opinion for the following reasons.
 
Firstly the expression, "emptied himself ", if translated literally from the Greek, would read, "emptied himself empty", this is emphatic, that is to say totally, not partially, in other words, whatever it was Jesus emptied Himself of, it was, all of, not some of . 

Verse 7 can only refer to what was being considered in verse 6, namely the Deity of the second person of the Trinity, in other words it was His, "equality with God", of which Jesus divested Himself. This is confirmed at verse 9, where Jesus has restored to Him, that of which He had previously, "emptied himself empty".   
 
Note:  You cannot give someone what they already have.
 
Tell me what is, "the name which is above every name",  Could this mean I wonder that God restored to Jesus that of which He had divested Himself ?
 
Verses 7, and 8 make it quite clear that Jesus made Himself just as we are, but of course without sin, He imposed upon Himself the same limitations that are imposed on each one of us, in order to demonstrate that we also can please God as He did, but it must always be done in the same way that He did it, that is by complete and total submission.
 
Every blessing.

Edwin

Note: The above is extracted from Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 09:07:18 am at,

http://praisehim.createaforum.com/my-faith-space/words-on-the-word-by-edwin-(read-only-please)/15/



 




http://praisehim.createaforum.com/my-faith-space/words-on-the-word-by-edwin-(read-only-please)/15/

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2013, 03:37:35 AM »
I do see Edwin from those verses of scripture why you would think that Jesus had emptied himself completely of his divinity, and it`s the verse that most who believe what you believe refer to. But you have to take into account other verses of scripture to come to a complete understanding of this subject. If Jesus had emptied himself "Completely" of his divinity, then how would you explain the following verse?
Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. Mt 17:2
You see, if he had divested himself completely of his divinity, then he could not have shown his disciples who he truly was. And what was it that he was showing them? He was showing them that he was indeed God in the flesh. He was showing them what was concealed in mere flesh and blood, the son of the living God.
And what about this verse.
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." Jn 10:18
Now if he had "Completely emptied himself of his divinity, then how could he (as a mere human) have the authority ( or power) to raise himself from the dead? None but divinity would have the power to perform such a miracle, surely? And since no man has ever achieved such a feat before (or after) Jesus, then we can safely assume that he was indeed divinity in the flesh, even though it was indeed from his father that he had received the command. But of course, Jesus and the father are one, and we musn`t forget that fact when debating this subject.
And also, when he was driving out demons, what did they address him as?
Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me." Lk 8:28
Now if Jesus was mere human (and not God in the flesh) then the demon might have even mocked him saying "Well who are you then, ha ha ha, off with you, you silly little man. An example of this might be the sons of Sceva, who tried to drive out demons in Jesus`s name, and came a cropper, because they didn`t have the lord`s anointing. Paul they knew, for he had been anointed by Jesus, and had his full authority. But without Jesus, Paul would have come a cropper too, no doubt.
So the point is, if Jesus did indeed "completely" empty himself, then the demons would not have recognized Jesus as son of God (Because remember they asked him if he had come to torment them before the time) Meaning that they weren`t referring to a future resurrected, and glorified Jesus, but a divine Jesus that was present at the time. And how would he have had the power to resurrect himself from the dead? And how could he have shown the disciples what was concealed within the frailty of humanity?
 The answer is that he had not "Completely emptied himself, but only partially so. If this is not so, then the verses that I have given you make no sense, and one must refute them somehow to maintain the kenotic heresy. I`m sorry to be so blunt, but that is exactly what it is, the separation of Jesus the man, from Jesus the son of God. God bless you Edwin.
PS, sorry if my post was a little long, he he he.

Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2013, 12:45:11 PM »
Philippians 2:7 KJV  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made  in the likeness of men


But made himself of no reputation

Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."


2 Corinthians 13:4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are  weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him in our dealing with you.

Jesus made Himself of no reputation , does not mean "emptying of Divinity"

Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2013, 01:00:37 PM »
Efengylwr71.

Thank you for your informative Reply #60 above

Have a look at what Jesus had to say at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. 
Jhn 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 
Jhn 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 

It is not the Son who speaks, and works, but the Father in the Son who is doing everything.

Jhn 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

In order to be seen, He who is Spirit needed a body, therefore it is written,

Hbr 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 
Hbr 10:5 Consequently, when Christ [fn] came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 
Hbr 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 
Hbr 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 

ESV Footnotes: (10:5) Greek he

The Son has merely made the Farther articulate by providing a body for the Father to dwell in.

Why are we told at Acts 2:22, "God did through him", if it was Jesus who performed the Miracles?

Act 2:22   "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

The Father speaking about His Son said,

Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 
Deu 18:19 And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.
 
Jesus as a man said,

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 
Jhn 12:50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak." 

Jesus is referred to as "My Servant" at Isaiah 52:13, which is where one should start to read Isaiah Ch 53.

Jesus also said,

Jhn 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 
 
Hope this helps.

Bless you brother.

Edwin.




Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2013, 09:47:15 PM »
If what I have said in my Reply #62 above is correct, then the question might arise.

Why would God do things this way?

Perhaps the  following might be an answer?
 
A young man who had not been a Christian for very long, spoke to the Pastor of the Church he attended, and said, "Please can you help me, as I am finding living the Christian life very difficult".
 
The Pastor's advised him to read the words of our Lord Jesus as found in the Gospels, and in particular in John's Gospel, and to look for those verses where Jesus was talking about His relationship with His Father God, and especially the attitude that He continually adopted towards His Father.
 
Although this was indeed excellent advice, the young man went away with a heavy heart, for as he said to himself, "Why didn't he tell me how Paul did it, how Peter did it, how James did it, how John did it, and not how Jesus did it, for He was Divine as well as being human", "I would expect nothing less than perfection from one who is both God and man, and not just man as I am".
 
You see the Pastor forgot that three weeks previously when speaking on Phil 2:5- 13, he had said, "Although we are about to look at the true humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, let it be clearly understood that never at any time was He any less than God".
 
May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
 
Edwin.

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