Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3016 times)

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Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2013, 02:40:40 AM »

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Efengylwr71

Since when does God address Himself as,  "To do Your will, O God".

Hbr 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 
Hbr 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 
Hbr 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God.' [fn] " 

NKJV Footnotes: (10:7) Psalm 40:6?8

How can God possibly say, "my God",

Jhn 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Unless of course at the time of His humanity Jesus was not God?
Well it`s quite simple really Edwin. It`s funny that you quoted the psalms, and yet overlooked.....
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." Psalm 110:1
There you have it, God addresses himself as God. The lord addresses himself as lord.
Again and again, you keep separating the trinity to maintain your heresy.

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Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2013, 09:50:29 AM »
 
Efengylwr71.

You quote,

"The LORD says to my Lord:"

Tell me, why do you suppose the first LORD is capitalised, whereas the second Lord is not?

"Again and again, you keep separating the trinity"

I do not separate the Trinity, God did when He said,

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [fn] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 

ESV Footnotes:
(28:19) Or into

Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2013, 12:11:13 PM »
Communicatio idiomatum

 With both the attributes of divinity and  humanity  in a single person, Jesus Christ the Son of God would say in such scriptures as John 17:5 NAS

 ?Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before  the world was

Omnipresence Matthew 28:20 Can be seen as saying "After I rise from the dead  and after  the resurrection, I will be with you always  John 16:13

Jesus being human as a baby and growing and evolving, developing and aging, being human  when he ate, walked, talked and slept.....

But also "Communicatio idiomatum" divinity and  humanity in One

To say that He was more human than God is too lower Him down to our level, but He was made to be Elohim - "a little lower than the angels" Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2:7 in a hypostatical Union

Hypostatical Union

Divinity and humanity are the reasons why Jesus had  the inability to sin. 

John 10:30  "I and  the Father are one."


John 1:1,2  John 8:58  Matthew 11:27  1 John 5:7,20  John 1:1

This is the "Communicatio idiomatum"

Praise be to God



One True God - Mark Harris - Worship Video
http://www.youtube.com/embed/QJtPKRMmttU

Serenity

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2013, 12:18:55 PM »
Hebrews 1 sums it up for me in regards to God the Father calling Jesus...God.

3 The Son is the radiance of God?s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

8 But about the Son he says,

?Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.?[e]
[/i]

And further in the chapter God calling the Son Lord

10 He also says,

?In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.?[f]

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2013, 12:38:57 PM »

Efengylwr71.

You quote,

"The LORD says to my Lord:"

Tell me, why do you suppose the first LORD is capitalised, whereas the second Lord is not?

"Again and again, you keep separating the trinity"

I do not separate the Trinity, God did when He said,

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [fn] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 

ESV Footnotes:
(28:19) Or into
I think you`re a little confused about the trinity Edwin. You must remember that the trinity is three distinct persons in one God, they are three, and yet they are one. This is the mystery of the trinity. God is not separating himself, he cannot alter his own nature, for he is what he is, or as he said it, I am that I am. This means God cannot change his own self, which would include the inability to sin. Now he either has the ability to sin or not, which is it? Now if you claim that he can, then you`re guilty of a logical fallacy, because light cannot become darkness (Spiritually speaking) nor has it the "Potential" to be darkness, that is just a logical fallacy, or a flaw in reasoning. Surely you can see this Edwin? Surely you have the intelligence to see where your reasoning is flawed? Remember that scripture fully supports the trinity, and the complete non sin nature of father, son, and holy spirit.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
There you have the trinity, and...
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.?James 1:13
And there is the infallible nature of God. Now if God is three persons in one, then logically them three persons cannot sin, be it father, son or holy spirit. Even if God lives in the flesh of man (as he did in the person of Jesus) then still he cannot sin, nor have the potential to do so, for as holy scripture states, he is beyond being able to be tempted. I`m afraid that to believe what you believe, you have to openly deny and refute holy scripture. I sincerely hope you can see this, and have the good grace and common sense to see that you are in fact in error in saying Jesus could have sinned. Just because Satan tried to tempt him, it doesn`t mean that he could have fallen into temptation, for he was the most holy God himself in the flesh, and had no sin nature, or potential towards darkness to contend with.

Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2013, 01:40:50 PM »
Efengylwr71.

Perhaps the following will help you to see my understanding.

The Deity of Christ, and how the Father used Him

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God, that, however, is not the point. All three persons of the Trinity are co equally God, but they are not the same, that is to say. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is that the Father first gives instructions to the Son, who then gives instructions to the Holy Spirit. Which I believe is confirmed as follows.

In verse 2 below, we are told, " the Spirit of God was hovering", that is to say awaiting instructions.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] [fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

In verses 3 & 22 below we are told, "through Him", not by Him,

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

When the second person of the Trinity became human, the Holy Spirit both, "drove", Him, see verse 12,

Mar 1:9 It came to pass in those days [that] Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And immediately, coming up from [fn] the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mar 1:12 Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

And was used by Him,

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And through whom He also gave instructions

Act 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

He Himself made it clear at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

As did His Father at,

Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

Jesus commenting on the above said,

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Every blessing.

Edwin.

Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2013, 08:03:11 PM »
The Trinity is a stumbling block for so many, I believe, because few or none have an explanation that fits both scripture and the human mind. After many years of struggling with this as with everything I have learned to regularly (daily) go to the lowest room. From there if I am to be lifted up (given a clearer answer) then the Lord will do it. Insisting that God is this or that will offend some and win few. When it is time to open our mouths, will not God give us the necessary words?

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2013, 08:12:28 PM »
Quote Edwin
Quote
Notice, it is in the, "name", not, "names". One name, three persons. Notice also, it is the Father first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third.
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is God, that, however, is not the point. All three persons of the Trinity are co equally God, but they are not the same, that is to say. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
I agree with you a 100% there Edwin. They are not the same person, they are three distinct persons who are all God at the same time. But I don`t think that any one person is greater than the other within the trinity. I know that Jesus says in.....
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28
But you must understand that Jesus was referring to his humanity. He belittled his own humanity on another occasion also....
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. Luke 18:19
Now obviously he was good, and God in the flesh. But it is my belief that he was referring to his humanity in that instance as he was when he said the father is greater than himself. We can come to that conclusion about Jesus degrading his humanity when he says....
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63.
And so we see Jesus not considering the flesh as anything at all, but giving full precedence to the spirit.
So it is my belief that father, son, and holy spirit, are all God, and if they are all God, then they must be equal in glory and power. Otherwise it would actually be like three god`s (so to speak) who had a pecking order. But a pecking order is impossible if all are God at the same time. And so, because "all" are God at the same time, they are all equal in glory and in moral infallibility. The only other way you can say that one of the persons of the trinity has a potential for moral infallibility is to separate the trinity, and this of course is impossible. For there is only one God, from eternity to eternity, and that can never change.

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