Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3720 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2013, 09:22:40 PM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

I try never to "conveniently skip over" things, but I do try to back away when I realize that continued discussion will accomplish nothing edifying. To accuse someone in order to force an answer is at the very best poor manners. I do have an answer, but this is not the time and this is not the place. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him.

How is it poor manners to ask a simple question? Since the subject matter is whether Jesus could have sinned or not, I think that it`s quite a relevant question. Accusing me of poor manners is just evasiveness at best.
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush (Logic). "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. Luke 6:44
Now you say that God is not logical, and that logic deosn`t come into the equation with God. But here we see Jesus being extremely logical. And with my comments about wet not being dry, and hot not being cold, and light not being darkness, all I`m doing is echoing our lord. If Jesus is 100% good (which I hope you agree on) then how can he have a propensity towards darkness? Surely he cannot? When men are tempted, they are tempted within their own hearts, as the bible says...
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.?James 1:13.
And so if God is not able to be tempted (as is clearly stated) and Jesus is his son, then how could Jesus be tempted? When Satan tried to tempt Jesus, you might as well say that it would have been like someone trying to tempt a straight, heterosexual man, into homosexulaity. It just isn`t in the straight man to desire it, though anyone is at liberty to try and do so, as was Satan at liberty to try and tempt Jesus (though it was quite in vain) But that`s the limitations of Satan, he does not know everything, and nor did he fully know who Jesus was until he had tried him. He certainly knew afterwards though, since he came across a man that he could not tempt into sin. For he had been successful with every other human being up to that point, and afterwards for that matter. He must have shuddered when he realized who he was dealing with. And so I do not wish to be impolite, or pushy, and I`m certainly not trying to force an answer out of you. I`m merely trying show you how impossible it was for Jesus to be able to sin, he just had no propensity towards it. Or is James wrong in his letter? Can God be tempted? I don`t think so somehow. And I think all that I have said in this post certainly supports (along with scripture) that notion.

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

Edwin

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2013, 09:46:34 AM »
Efengylwr71

I refer to your Reply #30.

Have a look at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 

It is clear that two individuals indwell the body of Jesus, just as is the case with Christians, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.

When Jesus says "My will" He refers to himself, whereas when He says "Your will" He refers to the Father.

In other words Jesus the human can sin, whereas the Father does not sin.

 

Edwin

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2013, 04:39:31 PM »
Amen! Thank for that Edwin!
Thank you Amadeus for the above, your comments are much appreciated.

What a shame not all can see the obvious.

The Lord bless you.

Edwin.

Offline Amadeus

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2013, 10:04:46 PM »
Thank you Amadeus for the above, your comments are much appreciated.

What a shame not all can see the obvious.

The Lord bless you.

Edwin.

As Jesus said it, "Peace"!

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 01:17:55 AM »
Efengylwr71

I refer to your Reply #30.

Have a look at,

Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 

It is clear that two individuals indwell the body of Jesus, just as is the case with Christians, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.

When Jesus says "My will" He refers to himself, whereas when He says "Your will" He refers to the Father.

In other words Jesus the human can sin, whereas the Father does not sin.
And there you go again Edwin, separating the Godhead. When Jesus talks about his own will as a man, that does not refer to, or imply that he was talking about himself being able to sin. You have merely taken that verse and turned into something that it is not. Remember when he refers to himself, he is referring to the second person of the trinity, and when he refers to the will of the father, he speaking of the first person of the trinity. You cannot believe Jesus could have sinned without separating the Godhead, which is what you most blatantly are doing. It`s a shame that you cannot see this. And by the way, believing that Jesus could have sinned is the first step to believing that he did sin. It`s a dangerous and slippery slope.

Alien-R

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 01:58:07 PM »
In my mind if Jesus could have sinned then the Godhead would have sinned

Jesus would not have been the unblemished sacrifice

Having said that ...lets misuse a scripture....


"Nothing is impossible for God "

Yet many things are impossible  for God


One being that  James 1:13 He cannot be tempted ......

Yet as One tempted in the wilderness and throughout His ministry on earth , He was without sin

He cannot do anything that is outside of His nature and in this God cannot lie Hebrews 6:18

John.1:5 ??This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.?


Darkness being "sin" in this passage

..............

Being here that Jesus who is God was in "flesh" means that He can be seen to be human and to have the nature of human corruptible  flesh"

Now see 1 Corinthians 15:52  and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Being that Jesus was crucified...

Was He crucified before or after the crucifixion ?

Just a few thoughts



Also see Video @ http://christianfaithwalk.co.uk/2013/09/17/was-jesus-without-sin-or-able-to-sin-2/
http://christianfaithwalk.co.uk/2013/09/17/was-jesus-without-sin-or-able-to-sin-2/

Offline Amadeus

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1279
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 05:49:44 PM »
In my mind if Jesus could have sinned then the Godhead would have sinned

Jesus would not have been the unblemished sacrifice

Having said that ...lets misuse a scripture....


"Nothing is impossible for God "

Yet many things are impossible  for God

God cannot do some things. He cannot change. His Word once spoken is unchangeable.

God has given each person the authority to choose God's Way or to choose his own ways. God will not remove that authority from a person even though it could mean that person would choose death instead of Life.


Quote
Being that Jesus was crucified...

Was He crucified before or after the crucifixion ?

Jesus was born without sin, but He was not born an overcomer. He had to live the life of a man with all the frailties and temptations of man and overcome them. He did as He says here:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

The "world" Jesus overcame was the world of the Son of man, the man of flesh who was tempted in all points as we are. I believe that He overcame the last obstacle for himself as a man here after the third prayer:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." Matt 26:42

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44

He had effectively overcome his own little world of flesh before He went to the cross. When He went to the cross all of the temptations were past. Only that final sacrifice remained. The sacrifice, now an overcomer, was ready. In the next chapter of John after having  declared that He was an overcomer take note of this phrase:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world..." John 17:11

He had not yet gone to the cross but He was already not in the world. He was not speaking about His body of flesh no longer being on planet earth. He was talking about no longer being in the little world of the temptations of a man. He had overcome them... before being crucified.

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2013, 12:38:51 AM »
Quote Amadeus
Quote
The "world" Jesus overcame was the world of the Son of man, the man of flesh who was tempted in all points as we are. I believe that He overcame the last obstacle for himself as a man here after the third prayer:
That is quite incorrect. The world that Jesus overcame was the world ruled by Satan, my my, how you are twisting scripture. He overcame Satan`s rule over this world as is written...
"Now judgement is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. Jn 12:31.
So the victory that Jesus had was over Satan, and not over any sinful inclination that he might have been wrestling with.
And again, you misinterpret Mt 26:39. What makes you think that Jesus would have sinned if he`d have walked away from his mission? Did he not have a choice? As the son of God he had the choice not to do what the father had sent him to do, and still be without sin. And so I will explain once again why. He would have been quite justified to let the punishment fall on us instead of himself, wouldn`t he? Don`t we deserve to be punished for wrong doing in God`s sight? If you don`t think so, then why did Jesus take our place? He took our place because the sin debt had to be paid before a just and holy God. When the father sent the son, it`s not as if he was forced by the father to do so, the Godhead would have had to consult and agree on the terms. When Jesus became man, he still had this choice, and could have justly walked away at any time. As a man he may indeed have done that (without sinning at all) But as the son of God, he was compelled by his very God nature to do the bidding of his father, for the will and the father and the son are one, and to say that Jesus could have sinned is to deny that fact. And so the fact that Jesus could have walked away as a man, does not imply that he could have (or would have) sinned. But it was the triune nature of God working in perfect harmony, in perfect love, to take the punishment we justly deserve, upon it/himself. Jesus could not have sinned, for he was both God and man simultaneously. The only way he could have sinned is if he were but a mere man, and this is what all who fallaciously maintain he could have sinned in effect believe.

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal