Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3021 times)

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Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2013, 01:36:39 PM »

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Amadeus, there is absolutely no point. If you won`t concede to logic, then it`s useless. Do you think that truth is illogical, or that God is an irrational and illogical being? Logic is this, hot can`t be cold, wet can`t be dry, dark can`t be light, it is that simple. I don`t have to throw out bible verse after bible verse to know pure goodness cannot have a propensity towards sin or darkness. And the evil that is spoken of in Isaiah is not moral evil, but rather calamity through judgement, and you should know that really. But maybe it makes you feel better to think that Jesus was closer to our humanity than he actually was, in the sense that he could have sinned. We don`t have to scour the scriptures to have spiritual understanding. Jesus himself berated the pharisees for searching the scriptures and yet knowing him not. I will say it once more, and once more only, who ever thinks that Jesus could have sinned is in grave error.

Logic like many things in God's creation can be a tool. It is not the end of the matter. The end of the matter is God. We cannot put Him in a box. We cannot comprehend Him... unless He gives us the comprehension. Some of that may be given by logic, but that alone is not the answer. You are hung up in your own mind. What Hope does the poor fellow have who has only average or even below average intelligence? Faith is not according to logic. That is my point.

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Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2013, 01:47:41 PM »
Just one more thing.That is not light becoming darkness at all, that is the absence of light. How could God have the absence of himself? That doesn`t even make sense at all.

Do you really understand my point, which is no man can put God in any box, not even the box of logic? Many things do not make sense, to the carnal mind, but does that mean we must always dismiss them as nonsense? Some people who have been unable to unravel God have dismissed Him denying His very existence.

Where is the end of the universe?


Quote
Light cannot become dark, dark can never become light, they are what they are. Jesus was the light of the world, and in him there is no darkness. You have to completely skip over them bible verses to justify your viewpoint. But having said all that I have said, I will say that I have read up on this heresy many times, and it is a modern charismatic heresy. Many are guilty of it, and will receive due correction.

You have looked it up and therefore your answer is final. I have looked it up and my answer has continued to change, not because it is different (or necessarily always completely correct), but because God has shined a bit more Light on it. Are we to be still waters becoming stagnant or are we to be moving when the pillar of cloud or fire lead us? Do you really understand all that God is? I certainly do not!

Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2013, 01:50:21 PM »
In my Reply #8 I quoted a verse in which Jesus says "not my will, but yours, be done"

Clearly indicating that He had the choice not to do His Fathers will, which would have been sin.

If as some maintain it was impossible for Him to sin, then what He said was not true.

How is it possible for He who is the Truth, to be a liar?

Amen! Thank for that Edwin!

owen.beynon.5

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2013, 02:19:48 PM »
I think we are all getting off track here !
Jesus was FULLY human and Fully God
Fully human means HE must have the ability to sin !
Fully God means that HE cannot sin
So in HIS humanity, HE could sin, but in HIS Divinity HE could not.
I am fully human, and yet, when I was born again I received The Spirit of God. When I sin, it is not Gods Spirit in me that sins, but my humanity. The same is true of Jesus. When HE walked this earth HIS humanity could sin, HE did not, it was not because HE was also God, but because HE choose not to. The only difference between HIS humanity and ours is that HE was born without origional sin, because HE was not a son of Adam, but of God
 Had Jesus not been able to sin, then HE would not have had to be born. HE could have done it all in the comfort of heaven, if as has been said on here HE could not sin. Why would the devil want to tempt HIM if HE could not sin. No it is a mockery to suggest otherwise, Jesus could sin, but chose not to.

Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2013, 09:43:57 PM »
Thank you Owen for your comments.

I know full well that the second person of the Trinity is indeed God, but did He for the 33+ years of His humanity divest Himself of His Deity, in order to be fully human?

For example Jesus said,

Jhn 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 

1.  How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".

2.  How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God take instruction from?

3.  Since when did God not seek His own will? 

4.  Who sent God?

Upon reflection it occurred to me that what I have said above, might have given the impression that I have a problem with the "Deity of Christ". Nothing in fact could be further from the truth.
 
My understanding is that in eternity, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is God, always has been God, and always will be God.  Never at any time in eternity did Jesus, the Son of God, divest Himself of His Deity. 

Bless you.

Edwin.



Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2013, 01:31:51 AM »
Quote Amadeus
Quote
Many things do not make sense, to the carnal mind, but does that mean we must always dismiss them as nonsense? Some people who have been unable to unravel God have dismissed Him denying His very existence.
Well it is the atheist who is not following logic. For an atheist to be what he is, he must assert that everything came from nothing, which is not logical at all. So although atheists think they follow logic and critical thinking, they are the most irrational of beings. God is logical, and everything he is, and created follows logic. Everything he created works in perfect order, or else life could not exist. It is all in perfect balance, and if things were different by a slight percentage, we would not have life. Anyone who thinks that pure goodness has the potential to become darkness is not using logic, or truth for that matter. All you are doing is following your own skewed perceptions instead of what is true and logical. But this happens all too often with people who will not follow the word of God properly, but instead their own thinking. And you accuse me of following my own way of thinking. Nowhere in the bible does it suggest that God has the potential to be evil, nor his son. Being tempted does not mean that God has the ability to deny his own good nature, or to be that which he is not. God is light, pure light, and cannot be anything else. Defending your own viewpoint on this means you deny the truth of the matter. In my closing statement I asked you which tree was Jesus, and you did not answer, but conveniently skipped over it. Jesus said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And so I ask you again, which tree is Jesus. If your answer is "A good tree" then he cannot bear bad fruit, can he?
Quote Owen Beynon
Quote
Fully human means HE must have the ability to sin !
Fully God means that HE cannot sin
If you think that makes sense, then you are mistaken. An orange cannot be an apple. Now you either have the ability to sin or not, you cannot be both wet and dry at the same time. Jesus could not sin, because he was God in the flesh. To concede that he could sin is to separate the two natures, and that is what you are all doing. He was both God and man at the same time, and being God in the flesh meant that he simply had not the ability to sin at all. And so if you thin he could sin, then you must concede that God (who is pure goodness) could potentially be evil. Now slice it how you like, but that is a grave error, and a most modern heresy.

Efengylwr71

  • Guest
Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2013, 01:41:31 AM »
Quote Edwin
Quote
1.  How can God possibly say, "I can do nothing on my own".

2.  How can God possibly say, "As I hear, I judge".. Who does God take instruction from?

3.  Since when did God not seek His own will? 

4.  Who sent God?
The mistake you are making Edwin is that you are separating the Godhead. God can say that as he hears he judges, because God hears God judging. When the son hears the father, it is God hearing God. When Jesus seeks the will of the father, again it is God seeking God`s will. When the father sent the son, it was God sending God. So can`t you see your error? The great error you are all making is that you are  separating the Godhead, and the father from the son. God is a triune being, father, son, and holy spirit. This is most certainly backed up by scripture...
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

Offline Amadeus

Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2013, 07:35:02 PM »
Quote
In my closing statement I asked you which tree was Jesus, and you did not answer, but conveniently skipped over it. Jesus said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And so I ask you again, which tree is Jesus. If your answer is "A good tree" then he cannot bear bad fruit, can he?

I try never to "conveniently skip over" things, but I do try to back away when I realize that continued discussion will accomplish nothing edifying. To accuse someone in order to force an answer is at the very best poor manners. I do have an answer, but this is not the time and this is not the place. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him.

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