Author Topic: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?  (Read 3738 times)

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Alien-R

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 02:52:31 AM »

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I also find it remarkable that you believe that Jesus could have sinned, and yet had no need of faith. And so you think that Jesus in his humanity could have opted to sin, but that as a human being had no need of faith. That is so contradictory, and fraught with double standard. After all what is true faith? True faith is "Knowing" that what you ask of God, will be done. So if you think that Jesus just knew, and needed not faith, consider that true faith is knowing. We are the image of God in every respect apart from sin. Jesus in his humanity would indeed have needed faith to be like us, and to empathise with those who lack it. Remember faith is a virtue, and not a compensation for those who do not have perfect knowledge.

I do not personally believe that Jesus could have sinned  :D

But thats my own belief and not being shared within this topic of discussion being that I am giving others space to view their own beliefs   :)


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Offline Raina

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 03:43:35 AM »
For those of us accepting the divinity of Christ (Jesus was/is God), you can see the difficulty arising in believing that Jesus (God) could sin.  He (Jesus) was light from light; "what part has darkness with light?"

As fully man, He was fully tempted (and so understands our temptation), but because He was also fully God, He overcame every temptation.  Thus, He was able to pay the price we could not pay.  (We could say God stepped into time and did for us what we could not do for ourselves, once for all.)  When we are finally "one with the Father" as Jesus was/is "one with the Father", then we, too, will have overcome and will never fall to temptation. 

As for Jesus having faith:  I believe Jesus had 100% perfect faith; He was 'one with the Father'--how could He not?  Likewise, when we are 'one with the Father' we will have perfect(ed) faith.

The main thing, I think, is that we see Jesus as an example.  We examine His life, His way of resisting temptation, His responses to various situations, and we learn from Him.  He was the perfect Teacher, because of His divine nature, yet was able to meet requirements as Kinsman Redeemer--to become our Redeemer--because he was, in His incarnation, fully human (although much more) and also fully kin to all of mankind.

Very complex, I know.  Very awesome, too. :D

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 06:11:48 AM »
I though this wee video might shed some light on this matter. Although amongst those who have their minds made up on this subject, I doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WpD1kJ84E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WpD1kJ84E

Offline Amadeus

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 10:35:08 PM »
Not necessarily. It is quite possible for someone to be in heresy and not know it. Of course those who are guilty of heresy don`t know they`re in error because they believe what they believe to be true.

You may be correct about heresy. I have always thought of it as a purposeful premeditated act or statement against God, but I admit the possibility that I am in error here. Definitions can cause trouble in communications.

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Remember that Jesus was born without sin from a virginal woman, and so he would not have had all the lusts of the flesh that the rest of humanity is subject to.

I cannot agree that he was born without the lusts of the flesh. If he didn't have them then he could not be tempted by them:

 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

I believe that he had all of the temptations that a man has, but rather than allowing any one them to lead him to sin, he overcame every one of them by the power the Word and Spirit within him. Do we not have the same power? Oh... but there is a difference, I believe. I won't detail it here.


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And where in the bible does it say that Jesus didn`t rely on faith.

Where does it says that he lives by faith?

Faith ... "is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

Jesus saw it all. He did not just believe, he knew.

"And Jesus knowing their thoughts..." Matt 9:4


"...no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him..." Matt 11:27


"Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him..." John 18:4


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If we are made in the image of God (Reflecting every aspect of his nature, except we are sinful and he is not) then it would stand to reason that he also operates on the basis of faith, hope and charity.
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Charity certainly, for this what God is: Love. But God does not live based on something that will end. Faith and hope will end. For God they never began. For Jesus they never began.  God's plan has no flaw. He knew the end from the beginning. Men may come to know it, if they come to trust God fully, absolutely and continuously. When any man does, then has he not come to the end of his faith?

"Receiving the end of your faith even the salvation of your souls" I Peter 1:9

The end of our faith is salvation itself. Jesus did not come to save himself. He did not need to be saved. We on the other hand...


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These are the things that we must think about before making erroneous claims. The principles of logic apply to the spiritual as well as to the physical.

Do they always? Where do you find "logic" in scripture? The following verse does not say that we are to live by logic, does it?

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

And this...

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23


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We can`t speak in contradictory terms and expect to get things right. If God is light, then how can he produce darkness? Just think about it logically.

Again logic? Will any man obtain God's truth by brain power alone? Will the smartest men be the closest ones to God? Will the best Bible students be the closest ones to God?

Is it not more likely that the closest ones to God will be the ones who hear His voice and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit?



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If God could produce works of darkness, then that would mean that he is both darkness and light.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

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But that`s not what the scriptures say at all. So the notion that Jesus could have sinned is not logical, and certainly isn`t scriptural, unless you cherry pick at certain verses that you think would justify that viewpoint.

The verse I quoted previously (Heb 4:15) says that he was tempted in all points as we and yet without sin. If he was unable to commit a sin, then he was not tempted. You speak  of logic. Is that logical? But forget logic for we are to live by faith rather than by knowledge. The knowledge will come if, I believe, we trust God.  What does the scripture say of knowledge?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

What is logical about that? But... it is what the scripture says.


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And so I will believe that Jesus could have sinned, when you can prove to me that light can potentially become darkness.

Light becomes darkness when the power source is disconnected. Could Jesus have cut off power?

What was it he did when he humbled himself to become flesh? Did he not somehow approach darkness?

How was that Adam and Eve killed themselves? Did they not thereby place themselves and their offspring in a darker place?

Was not the fleshly Jesus as observed by unbelievers darker than what James, Peter and John saw at the transfiguration?

But... what is darkness to God?

"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:11-12

How do you resolve these apparent issues or questions with "logic"?

What we must do, I believe, is start always from the bottom. When we are to be lifted up higher, God will lift us. God is always the One who gives the increase, not man or logic or study...

The lowest room:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2013, 01:33:15 AM »
Amadeus, there is absolutely no point. If you won`t concede to logic, then it`s useless. Do you think that truth is illogical, or that God is an irrational and illogical being? Logic is this, hot can`t be cold, wet can`t be dry, dark can`t be light, it is that simple. I don`t have to throw out bible verse after bible verse to know pure goodness cannot have a propensity towards sin or darkness. And the evil that is spoken of in Isaiah is not moral evil, but rather calamity through judgement, and you should know that really. But maybe it makes you feel better to think that Jesus was closer to our humanity than he actually was, in the sense that he could have sinned. We don`t have to scour the scriptures to have spiritual understanding. Jesus himself berated the pharisees for searching the scriptures and yet knowing him not. I will say it once more, and once more only, who ever thinks that Jesus could have sinned is in grave error.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 01:43:08 AM »
Just one more thing.
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Light becomes darkness when the power source is disconnected. Could Jesus have cut off power?
That is not light becoming darkness at all, that is the absence of light. How could God have the absence of himself? That doesn`t even make sense at all. Light cannot become dark, dark can never become light, they are what they are. Jesus was the light of the world, and in him there is no darkness. You have to completely skip over them bible verses to justify your viewpoint. But having said all that I have said, I will say that I have read up on this heresy many times, and it is a modern charismatic heresy. Many are guilty of it, and will receive due correction.

Efengylwr71

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2013, 01:53:24 AM »
Just a closing thought.
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."Mt 7:18
Now Amadeus, which tree do you think Jesus is?


Edwin

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Re: Was Jesus without sin or able to sin ?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2013, 10:52:09 AM »

In my Reply #8 I quoted a verse in which Jesus says "not my will, but yours, be done"

Clearly indicating that He had the choice not to do His Fathers will, which would have been sin.

If as some maintain it was impossible for Him to sin, then what He said was not true.

How is it possible for He who is the Truth, to be a liar?


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