Author Topic: Light & Darkness  (Read 1001 times)

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Offline tribalchristian

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2016, 03:31:57 PM »

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Dear A,

That was very well said.  Great post. Clear thinking.

God bless,

Michael
"Listen, Hear, and Obey On Time"

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Offline Amadeus

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2016, 07:48:58 PM »
Hi
Genesis the creation of the universe the earth and everything in it the light on day one has to be Christ the light of the world he was before all things the first and the last.
I like to think Genesis 1 is still in progress that creation will not be finished until we see Man (mankind) in Gods image which of course is Christ united with his bride and we enter into Gods rest this is Gods plan for us and it has not bean achieved yet.

I believe that Genesis 2 is the second creation of man in Gods image which is Israel it started after the flood with Noah it would take 6000 years six days on the  forth day the sun is created Christ comes into the world the moon is created the church to give us light while we wait for the return of our lord.

Love and Peace
Dave

Consider also the sun representing the New Testament [NT] and the moon, the Old Testament [OT]. During the time of the OT there was very little real Light available for people to see by, but then after the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus the NT provided some real Light for those willing and able to see via the Holy Spirit which was now provided to "whosoever will".

With those things in mind consider this verse:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26

At the end what do we have for Light?

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." Rev 21:23-25

Online davetaff

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2016, 02:58:28 PM »
Hi Amadeus
Thanks for your reply and I take your point was wondering how you would interpret the following verses.

 Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God,
 and to his throne.

It seams to me the first verse is speaking of Israel  the moon under her feet possibly the priesthood.
Is the twelve stars on her crown the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles
The child she is about to deliver of course is Christ.
The devil want's to kill him so God tells his parents to take him to Egypt.
Then Christ ascends up to God at pentecost.

Iv'e always thought revelations started at the time of Christ so why wait to halve way through to tell us of the birth of Christ should we be looking at as starting at the beginning of creation is it about the seven days of creation and the seven churches.????

Love and Peace
Dave     

 
 



Offline Deborah

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2016, 05:59:33 PM »

Iv'e always thought revelations started at the time of Christ so why wait to halve way through to tell us of the birth of Christ should we be looking at as starting at the beginning of creation is it about the seven days of creation and the seven churches.????

Love and Peace
Dave     

That's one reason why I think that Revelation is not meant to be chronological at all.
"My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:27)

Offline Amadeus

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2016, 07:58:01 PM »
Hi Amadeus
Thanks for your reply and I take your point was wondering how you would interpret the following verses.

Some things seem loud and clear to each of us in our walk with God, while others seem subdued and dark. This varies from person to person according to where that person is in his walk and what God has provided so far.

Quote
Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God,
 and to his throne.

Quote
It seams to me the first verse is speaking of Israel  the moon under her feet possibly the priesthood.

I appreciate you looking to me for some sort an answer here, but off the top of my head I don't have a simple and conclusive one. I read scripture daily to accomplish a certain amount over the continuous course of time [That for me is "eating his flesh"].

I used to study for particular answers or to study the studies other men have made on the subjects. That is not an evil way to go but don't be surprised if it is not as fruitful as one might expect. What is God's answer for a real situation is the answer we usually need. It is the answer He will provide when it is needed.

In the OT they were given a set of seemingly black and white rules [law given to Moses], but it was not the correct answer then and it is not now. The correct answer today for my problem may not be the correct answer for you tomorrow for what appears to be the same problem.

As to your question about verse 1 of chapter 12: Where or what is heaven? Who or what is the woman?

I have seen three heavens in scripture described in the three levels of Noah's Ark and the three parts.

I have seen two women: Sarah and Hagar. Both of them were mothers to Abraham's children. Is one them  described in Rev 12:1? Consider Proverbs chapter 9 where two women are discussed, wisdom from verse 1 and a foolish one from verse 13. Going back to the Book of Genesis where Abraham encountered each of them also can also be helpful in our understanding.

What is the woman clothed with? The sun. So consider what the sun is in scripture. And what is it that is to be under the woman's feet? The moon. So consider what the moon is in scripture. There is no one single answer to every question and correct answer on the one hand will be the wrong answer on the other hand. There is a right hand of God and a left hand. Let us pray that we be always on or in His right hand.

I know all of this may not be much help to you. You want what I wanted for so many years. As it escaped me so it has escaped you or has it?

The answer is in the flesh and blood of Jesus. This is why we must partake in both regularly.

Quote
Is the twelve stars on her crown the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles

What is a star in scripture? Was it not a star that fell from heaven? Where again was heaven? Which heaven is that? When considering the heavens, consider the meaning of this verse:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Stars as I see it are men, men who have a bit of Light, that Light which is their gift to show men a little bit of God's way. That is why He called them. But...

"...and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

The star that fell had Light so it was certainly called, but was it chosen and was it faithful?

The twelve stars of the crown on her head were what? If she, the woman, is the true church, then are these not jewels by which God glorifies the or the mother of the Bride?

The stars are messengers intended to bear a special message from God to men. They each had a job to do as assigned to them by God. Many more than 12 or 24 were called, but how many did not answer the call, and of those who answered how many were like the son who told his father that he would go but did not?

Quote
The child she is about to deliver of course is Christ.
The devil want's to kill him so God tells his parents to take him to Egypt.
Then Christ ascends up to God at pentecost.

Iv'e always thought revelations started at the time of Christ so why wait to halve way through to tell us of the birth of Christ should we be looking at as starting at the beginning of creation is it about the seven days of creation and the seven churches.????

Love and Peace
Dave     

As Deborah has already said perhaps it is not intended to be chronological at all. The entire, Bible, is perhaps a complex but simple parable. It is complex to the mind of man and can never be understood by the mind of man, but it is simple to God and any part of it He explains to us will be simple.

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matt 13:34

Is not Jesus the Word of God? Is not the written Bible his dead carcase waiting to brought to Life in someone by the Holy Ghost? Note that not only the red letters (if you happen to have a red letter Bible) are the carcase. All of the Bible is the carcase. All of the Bible needs to be brought to Life. All of the Bible is a parable or a group of parables.

One very important key is that there are 7 days as described in Genesis 1 & 2. When we are able to fit all of the rest of scripture into those 7 days and perhaps the 8th day, then perhaps we will have just begun to scratch the surface of understanding all that God has for us.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I could check one of the several commentaries that I have and quote what other men have said, but what is it that I know or understand or believe? Don't ever quit seeking His face? If you don't it will get clearer in time.

Offline francis drake

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2016, 09:29:31 PM »
Some things seem loud and clear to each of us in our walk with God, while others seem subdued and dark. This varies from person to person according to where that person is in his walk and what God has provided so far.

I appreciate you looking to me for some sort an answer here, but off the top of my head I don't have a simple and conclusive one. I read scripture daily to accomplish a certain amount over the continuous course of time [That for me is "eating his flesh"].

I used to study for particular answers or to study the studies other men have made on the subjects. That is not an evil way to go but don't be surprised if it is not as fruitful as one might expect. What is God's answer for a real situation is the answer we usually need. It is the answer He will provide when it is needed.

In the OT they were given a set of seemingly black and white rules [law given to Moses], but it was not the correct answer then and it is not now. The correct answer today for my problem may not be the correct answer for you tomorrow for what appears to be the same problem.

As to your question about verse 1 of chapter 12: Where or what is heaven? Who or what is the woman?

I have seen three heavens in scripture described in the three levels of Noah's Ark and the three parts.

I have seen two women: Sarah and Hagar. Both of them were mothers to Abraham's children. Is one them  described in Rev 12:1? Consider Proverbs chapter 9 where two women are discussed, wisdom from verse 1 and a foolish one from verse 13. Going back to the Book of Genesis where Abraham encountered each of them also can also be helpful in our understanding.

What is the woman clothed with? The sun. So consider what the sun is in scripture. And what is it that is to be under the woman's feet? The moon. So consider what the moon is in scripture. There is no one single answer to every question and correct answer on the one hand will be the wrong answer on the other hand. There is a right hand of God and a left hand. Let us pray that we be always on or in His right hand.

I know all of this may not be much help to you. You want what I wanted for so many years. As it escaped me so it has escaped you or has it?

The answer is in the flesh and blood of Jesus. This is why we must partake in both regularly.

What is a star in scripture? Was it not a star that fell from heaven? Where again was heaven? Which heaven is that? When considering the heavens, consider the meaning of this verse:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Stars as I see it are men, men who have a bit of Light, that Light which is their gift to show men a little bit of God's way. That is why He called them. But...

"...and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14

The star that fell had Light so it was certainly called, but was it chosen and was it faithful?

The twelve stars of the crown on her head were what? If she, the woman, is the true church, then are these not jewels by which God glorifies the or the mother of the Bride?

The stars are messengers intended to bear a special message from God to men. They each had a job to do as assigned to them by God. Many more than 12 or 24 were called, but how many did not answer the call, and of those who answered how many were like the son who told his father that he would go but did not?

As Deborah has already said perhaps it is not intended to be chronological at all. The entire, Bible, is perhaps a complex but simple parable. It is complex to the mind of man and can never be understood by the mind of man, but it is simple to God and any part of it He explains to us will be simple.

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matt 13:34

Is not Jesus the Word of God? Is not the written Bible his dead carcase waiting to brought to Life in someone by the Holy Ghost? Note that not only the red letters (if you happen to have a red letter Bible) are the carcase. All of the Bible is the carcase. All of the Bible needs to be brought to Life. All of the Bible is a parable or a group of parables.

One very important key is that there are 7 days as described in Genesis 1 & 2. When we are able to fit all of the rest of scripture into those 7 days and perhaps the 8th day, then perhaps we will have just begun to scratch the surface of understanding all that God has for us.

I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I could check one of the several commentaries that I have and quote what other men have said, but what is it that I know or understand or believe? Don't ever quit seeking His face? If you don't it will get clearer in time.

Amadeus.
Just brilliant.
Your humble exposition on how to get the most out of scripture surely stands as a testimony that should be posted before every theological discussion on this and other forums!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online davetaff

Re: Light & Darkness
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 04:30:21 PM »
Hi Amadeus
I agree with FD an excellent post and much I can relate to Much food  for thought I also read a potion of scripture daily I find it far more rewarding than goggling for answers.

This statement of yours I found very interesting

Quote
One very important key is that there are 7 days as described in Genesis 1 & 2. When we are able to fit all of the rest of scripture into those 7 days and perhaps the 8th day, then perhaps we will have just begun to scratch the surface of understanding all that God has for us. - See more at: http://www.1faith.co.uk/raise-a-debate/light-darkness/16/?action=post;last_msg=53110#sthash.jgZWEcez.dpuf   

I have for some time said that there is a lot more to the creation story in Genesis than meats the eye as this verse helps to show.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So God tells us from the very beginning what the end will be which I see as Gods rest which is open to all who believe as the letter to the Hebrews tells us.

Heb 4:3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

So like you I say between In the beginning and Gods rest the rest of scripture has to fit in the last and crowning glory of creation is man in Gods image which is of course Christ Jesus our Lord united with his Bride the Church and they become one

Love and Peace
Dave

 
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