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Offline OutWest

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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2023, 03:47:14 PM »
Cain's Rejection

Gen 4:2b . . Abel became a keeper of sheep, and Cain became a tiller of the soil.

Both men worked at honorable professions and their skills were essential to the
Adams' survival. Man at this time was a vegetarian so Cain farmed and raised the
family's food; while Abel kept them clothed and shod by tending flocks for leather;
and possibly fleece too.

Gen 4:3-4a . . It came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering
to The Lord of the fruit of the ground. And Abel, on his part also brought of the
firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions.

There's no indication in this scene suggesting their offerings were sacrifices for sin.
The Hebrew word basically pertains to donations and/or tributes, and usually
bloodless and voluntary.

NOTE: At this point in time, there were no codified laws pertaining to liturgical

Ancient rabbis understood the brothers' offerings to be a "first fruits" kind of

T. And it was at the end of days, on the fourteenth of Nisan, that Kain brought of
the produce of the earth, the seed of cotton (or line), an oblation of first things
before the Lord; and Habel brought of the firstlings of the flock. (Targum Jonathan)

Seeing as how Cain was a farmer, then in his case, an amount of produce was the
appropriate first fruits offering, and seeing as how Abel was an animal
husbandman, then a head of livestock was appropriate for him.

* I think it's safe to assume the brothers were no longer boys, but rather,
responsible men in this particular scene because God is going to treat them that

This incident is not said to be the first time they approached God with gifts. The
brothers (and very likely their parents too), probably had been bringing gifts for
many years; ever since they were kids. And up to this point, apparently both men
were doing everything right and God was just as much pleased with Cain and his
gifts as He was with Abel and his gifts. But this time, something was amiss.

Gen 4:4b-5a . .The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain
and his offering he did not look with favor.

If Cain's offering was correct and timely; then why didn't God accept it? Well;
before God snubbed Cain's offering, He first snubbed Cain. In other words; Abel
had become the kind of man whom God approves whereas Cain had become the
kind of man whom God disapproves.

Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

In other words: Cain's piety was flawed, i.e. his personal conduct was unacceptable,
viz: though Cain was religious, he wasn't righteous.

Compare Isa 1:2-20 wherein Moses' people are depicted faithfully offering all the
required sacrifices and offerings, praying up a storm, observing all the holy days of
obligation, and keeping Sabbath. But The Lord rejected their God-given liturgy
because the people themselves were deplorable.

Offline davetaff

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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2023, 01:03:16 PM »
Hi Outwest
The story of Cain and Able  is a mirror image of something that was to happen a long time in the future  then the two brothers  are Christ  and Israel  Crist being the younger brother he came into the world after Israel so the elder brother Israel kills the younger brother Chrisr its jest history repeating itself.

Love and Peace

Offline OutWest

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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2023, 04:21:51 PM »
Cain's Punishment

Gen 4:8 . . Cain talked with Abel his brother; and when they were in the field,
Cain set upon his brother Abel and killed him.

The Hebrew word translated "killed" means to smite with deadly intent; so Abel's
death was murder rather than manslaughter.

Gen 4:12-13 . . If you till the soil, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. You
shall become a ceaseless wanderer on earth. Cain said to The Lord: My punishment
is too great to bear!

Cain's punishment was relatively lenient. In point of fact, it wasn't punishment at
all, it was discipline. It's true that Cain would struggle to survive; but at least he
was allowed to live. His kid brother was dead. How is that fair?

FAQ: How did Cain get off with only a slap on the wrist? Why didn't God report
Cain's deed to Adam to have his son stand trial for murder?

REPLY: The Bible's retribution for murder is capital punishment; and that comes out
relatively early in God's communications with Man at Gen 9:5-6. However; Adam
couldn't prosecute Cain for murder because it wasn't illegal in his day. In other
words; the codified laws of God aren't retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13,
and Gal 3:17)

FAQ: Well then, why didn't God step in and prosecute Cain for murder?

REPLY: It's important to note that Gen 9:5-6 doesn't apply in God's association with
Man, rather; in Man's association with his fellow Man. And on top of that; God's
association with Man has never been based solely upon strict rules and regulations
because Christ was reckoned crucified prior to the cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)
In other words: the cross allowed God quite a bit of latitude in His association with Cain.

Offline davetaff

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2023, 06:48:48 PM »
Hi Outwest

   Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure       

The beginning is Genesis and in Genesis  God tells us the end so we need to view Genesis in a different light the last thing God created was man in his image and that man is Jesus Christ at his second comming.

Love and Peace

Offline OutWest

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2023, 03:14:14 PM »
Cain's Wife

Gen 4:16-17 . . Cain went out from the presence of The Lord, and settled in the land
of Nod, east of Eden. And Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave
birth to Enoch

Cain married one of his sisters: he had to because there was no other human life
available anywhere on earth other than that descending from Adam.

He was created directly from the earth's soil, whereas Adam's wife was
constructed from human material taken from his body. In other words: Eve's flesh
was biologically just as much Adam's flesh as Adam's except for certain physical
characteristics; viz: Eve wasn't a discrete species of human life, rather; she was the
flip side of the same coin.

Upon completion of Adam and his wife, God wrapped the work of creation and has
made nothing new for the cosmos ever since, i.e. it was all done. Thereafter all
human life descended from Eve.

Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of
all the living.

And from Adam.

Acts 17:26 . . From one man He made every nation of men, that they should
inhabit the whole earth.

* The Greek word translated "nation of men" is ethnos (eth'-nos) which pertains to
racial diversity.

An even more convincing example of prehistoric incest is Noah and his three sons
and their wives. Nobody else survived the Flood; ergo: Shem's, Ham's, and
Japheth's children all married amongst themselves.

Gen 9:18-19 . . Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem and
Ham and Japheth. These three were the sons of Noah; and from these the whole
earth was populated.

Obviously the human body's composition tolerated inbreeding back in those days
whereas in our time not so much. The proof of it is pre-historic human life's
amazing longevity-- Adam lived to be 930, and Noah to 950 but by the time of
Moses, 80 was a stretch. (Ps 90:10)

Now as to the "sin" of incest; according to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and
Gal 3:17; God doesn't enforce His laws ex post facto: viz: they are not retroactive.
So then, it would be a gross miscarriage of justice to condemn pre-historic people
for incest because God didn't prohibit those kinds of relationships in their day; and
wouldn't until quite a bit later in Moses' day. In point of fact: Abraham married a
half sister (Gen 20:12) which at the time was permitted but later forbidden. (Lev

Offline OutWest

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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2023, 02:25:24 PM »
How The Critters Got To Noah

Gen 6:19-20 . . And of all that lives, of all flesh, you shall take two of each into the ark
to keep alive with you; they shall be male and female. From birds of every kind, cattle of
every kind, every kind of creeping thing on earth, two of each shall come to you to stay

Fortunately Noah didn't have to go on safari to round up his passengers. God said two
of each "shall come to you" (cf. Gen 7:9, Gen 7:15) which implies of course that species
who failed to come were left behind and destroyed by the Flood. There was plenty of
time for them to make it because Noah was 120 years building the ark and getting it
ready. (Gen 6:3)

A man named Dave Kunst walked across today's world in just a little over 4 years from
June 1970 to October 1974. Kunst walked a total of 14,450 miles, crossing four
continents and thirteen countries, wearing out 21 pair of shoes, and walking more than
20 million steps. That was an odd thing to do, but does prove it can be done in a
relatively short time; so 120 years was plenty enough for all the critters to make it on
over to Noah's place in time for the Folly's maiden voyage.

If the ark were to launch in 2023, critters would have been on the move towards it since
1903-- the very year of the Wright Brothers historical flight, and nine years before the
Titanic foundered --probably reproducing many times along the way since there are not
all that many species that live to see 120 years of age.

But how did they cross oceans? In the past that was doubtless a thorny theological
problem before scientists discovered that continental land masses can be shifted, and in
point of fact the dry parts brought so close together as to form one single super

Scientists also know about subduction and magma hot spots and pressure points that
can raise and lower the earth's crust like a service elevator. That's going on right now in
the region of Yellowstone National Park.

For example according to Gen 14:3, the area now known as the Dead Sea was once
the Vale of Siddim. In its early history; the valley was home to the Sedom Lagoon. Back
then, water from the Red Sea was able to ebb in and out of the lagoon because the
region hasn't always been land-locked like it is today. At one time the Jordan River had
an easy outlet to the gulf of Aqaba. But over time, tectonic forces altered the region;
preventing drainage into the gulf and trapping water in a huge basin from which they
cannot escape.

Gen 1:9-10 and Ps 104:5-9 are handy for showing that God is capable of molding the
Earth's lithosphere into any geological configuration He pleases to push sea beds up
and form land bridges; thus expediting migrations from all over the world over to Noah's

This idea is by no means novel. For example: in 2014, a 9,000 year-old stone structure
utilized to capture caribou was discovered 120 feet below the surface of Lake Huron;
and is the most complex structure of its kind in the Great Lakes region.

The structure consists of two parallel lanes of stones leading to a cul-de-sac. Within the
lanes are three circular hunting blinds where prehistoric hunters hid while taking aim at
caribou. The structure's size and design suggest that hunting was probably a group
effort, with one group driving caribou down the lanes towards the blinds while another
group waited to attack.

The site-- discovered by using sonar technology on the Alpena-Amberley Ridge, 35
miles southeast of Alpena Michigan --was once a dry land corridor connecting
northeastern Michigan to southern Ontario.

Ten miles off the coast of Alabama in 60 feet of water in the Gulf of Mexico, are the
remains of a Bald Cypress grove that's estimated to be eight to fourteen thousand years
old; testifying that the earth's topography was quite a bit different in the ancient past.

Geological processes normally take thousands of years to accomplish, but those
processes can be sped up considerably by the cosmos' creator, who has absolute
control over everything-- not just the earth's geological processes; but all the rest of
nature's processes too; including things like gravity, thermodynamics, inertia, and the
speed of light, etc.

Offline OutWest

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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2023, 03:07:05 PM »
The Fate Of Noah's Ark

Gen 8:3b . . At the end of one hundred and fifty days the waters diminished, so
that in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to
rest on the mountains of Ararat.

The Hebrew word translated "Ararat" appears three more times in the Bible: one at
2Kgs 19:36-37, one at Isa 37:36-38, and one at Jer 51:27. Ararat always refers to
the country of Armenia: never a geological feature by the same name.

The Hebrew word for "mountains" doesn't always mean prominent land masses like
Everest or McKinley; especially when it's plural. Har can also mean a range of
mountains like the Pyrenees bordering Spain and France and/or a range of hills or
highlands; like the region of Israel where Mary's cousin Elizabeth lived. (Luke 1:39

In California, where I lived as a kid, the local elevation 35 miles east of San Diego,
in the community of Alpine, was about 2,000 feet above sea level. There were plenty
of meadows with pasture and good soil. In fact much of it was very good ranch land
and quite a few people in that area raised horses and cows. We ourselves kept about
five hundred chickens, and a few goats and calves. We lived in the mountains of San
Diego; but we didn't live up on the tippy top of one like Viejas, Lyon's, or Cuyamaca.

So; where is the ark now? Well; according to the dimensions given at Gen 6:15, the
ark was shaped like what the whiz kids call a right rectangular prism; which is
nothing in the world but the shape of a common shoe box. So most of the lumber
and/or logs used in its construction would've been nice and straight; which is
perfect for putting together cabins, sheds, fences, barns, corrals, stables, gates,
hog troughs, mangers, and outhouses.

I think it's very safe to assume Noah and his kin gradually dismantled the ark over
time and used the wood for a variety of purposes, including fires. Nobody cooked or
heated their homes or their bath and laundry water with refined fossil fuels and/or
electricity and steam in those days, so everybody needed to keep on hand a pretty
fair-sized wood pile for their daily needs. There was probably plenty of driftwood
left behind by the Flood, but most of that would be water-soaked at first. But
according to Gen 6:14 the ark's lumber was treated. So underneath the pitch it was
still in pretty good shape and should have been preserved for many years to come.

* Noah's sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth eventually multiplied (Gen 9:18-19) so
they and their posterity would've made use of the ark's materials too. I would guess
that by the time of the migration and the Tower of Babel depicted in the 11th chapter,
the ark was pretty much completely torn apart and hauled off so that explorers
searching for it in our time are sort of like blind men in a dark room looking for a black
cat that isn't there.

Offline OutWest

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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2023, 03:00:14 PM »

Gen 9:1-4 . . Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them: Everything
that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I
now give you everything.

Blessings should never be construed as commandments and/or laws and edicts. In
other words: God gave Noah and his sons the green light to eat meat, but He didn't
say they had to.

Rom 14:2-3 . . One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man,
whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not
look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must
not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Inquirers are often curious why God revised humanity's diet after the Flood. Well;
the Bible gives no specific reason for it that I'm aware of, but according to an article
in the Dec 10, 2013 Science section of the New York Times, scientists believe that
the early human body was able to manufacture all of its own essential vitamins; but
over time gradually lost the ability to manufacture all but K and D.

That seems plausible to me seeing as how Noah lived to be 950 years old, but by
the time of Abraham, the human life span had decreased considerably to 175;
which the Bible describes as a ripe old age (Gen 25:7 8). Well, Noah at 175 was
about equivalent to Abraham at 32; so the human body was obviously a whole lot
stronger back in Noah's day than it was in Abraham's.

Apparently the inclusion of meat in Man's diet after the Flood was intended
primarily as a source of natural supplements to make up for the human body's
gradually lessening ability to manufacture all its own essential nutrients; much the
same reason that modern vegans resort to synthetic supplements in order to avoid
contracting deficiency diseases.

An important essential in human health is protein, which consists of a number of
amino acids that are difficult to obtain in a strictly flora diet; whereas fauna
products-- e.g. eggs and meat --easily provide Man with a so-called complete
protein. A number of proteins are somewhat fragile and require timely replacement.

It appears to me that those trees in the garden of Eden were either unusually
nutritious or the human body didn't require as much care back then as it does now.

* People subsisting on vegan diets, such as many of the people of India, often eat
lots of minute insect eggs along with their fruits and vegetables without knowing it,
thus providing themselves with a number of essential nutrients that most everyone
else obtains by deliberately eating animal products. It's kind of humorous that in
their care to avoid meat. vegans sometimes end up dining on bugs.


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