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Offline OutWest

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2023, 04:55:57 PM »
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Original Sin

The importance of the original sin-- a.k.a. Adam's eating of the forbidden fruit per
the 3rd chapter of Genesis --is due primarily to its universal application.

It is commonly believed among a pretty large number of Christians that the
consequences relative to Adam eating the forbidden fruit are transmitted to children
by means of their parents. But the language and grammar in the epistle to Romans
indicates that everyone's joint participation in Adam's act took place in real time
rather than taking place in their own time.

Rom 5:12 . .Through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death,
and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned

The words "all sinned" are grammatically past tense rather than present or future.
In other words; everyone that is related, was related, and/or shall be related to
Adam is reckoned a joint participant in his act, and it matters not whether they are
virgin conceived or normally conceived because the act isn't transmitted by one's
parents, it was imputed to everyone simultaneously. There's more.

Rom 5:19 . .Through the disobedience of one person the many were made
sinners

The words "were made sinners" are grammatically past tense rather than present
or future. In other words; everyone that is related, was related, and/or shall be
related to Adam became guilty of his act right then; whether virgin conceived or
normally conceived makes no difference because complicity in Adam's act isn't
transmitted by one's parents, it was imputed to everyone simultaneously. There's
more yet.

Rom 5:12 . .Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and
through sin, death; and thus death came to all

The words "death came to all" are grammatically past tense rather than present or
future. In other words; everyone that is related, was related, and/or shall be
related to Adam was condemned to death by his act right then; whether virgin
conceived or normally conceived makes no difference because the death sentence
isn't transmitted by one's parents; it was imputed to everyone simultaneously.

FAQ: Doesn't Ezek 18:20 say that children aren't responsible for their father's sins?

REPLY: The laws of God are not retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13,
and Gal 3:17)

FAQ: Did Jesus' virgin conception insulate him from the original sin?

REPLY: According to Romans 5:12-21 the so-called original sin isn't inherited,
rather; it's imputed; and it isn't imputed to each in his own time, but was imputed
to each in real time. In other words: the moment Adam tasted the forbidden fruit
his entire posterity was doomed to mortality right then and there: no delay and no
waiting period.

The thing is: although Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father, his mother was
biologically related to Eve: so then Mary was also biologically related to Adam
because Eve was constructed top to bottom, inside and out, front to back, and side
to side with material taken from Adam's body.

FAQ: Well then, how can John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22 all claim
and/or imply that Jesus was a lamb without spot or blemish, i.e. 100% sinless?

REPLY: Jesus committed no sins of his own to answer for.

FAQ: Did Adam's sin put his posterity in danger of Hell?

REPLY: Not directly. According to Gen 2:17 it was a death-worthy transgression
rather than Hell-worthy. In other words; the proper penalty for Adam's mistake was
simply his loss of perpetual youth; and of course loss of access to the tree of life to
make sure he'd die. (Gen 3:22-24) Now as for posterity's sins; that's another story.

FAQ: Why single out Adam? Weren't he and his wife a sort of tag team?

REPLY: According to Rom 5:12-19 it was God's decision that sin and death come
into the world via one man working alone just as righteous and life would later
come into the world via one man working alone. When people attempt to shoehorn
Eve into the game, they feminize the model and taint its message. i.e. while true
that a woman's conduct played a role in original sin, it was a man's conduct alone
that triggered its spread.
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Offline OutWest

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2023, 02:30:37 PM »
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Christ And Man's Fallen Nature

In a nutshell: the so-called fallen nature is a preference for unobstructed,
unrestrained, self rule; i.e. deciding for one's self what determines right and wrong
and/or what determines good and evil. In that respect, the fallen nature tends to be
a tin God and resists cooperating with the real God. (Gen 3:22 and Rom 8:7-8)

It's believed by a pretty large percentage of modern Christians that the so called
fallen nature is propagated by men. Oh? From whence did Eve get it?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's body
prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after his wife was
already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass the fallen nature to
her by means of reproduction.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had something to
do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I seriously doubt it
because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as shameless in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit
that she began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far
more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

If Eve's fallen condition wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's body, then what?
Well; obviously the Serpent did it to them, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5,
and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment that
Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it takes effect.
Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both immediately set to work
cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to cover their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she tasted the
forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come into the
world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and righteousness
would come into the world via a lone male's actions. (Rom 5:12-21)

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of the
womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb; and if not in the womb, then certainly
no later than when we're born. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

So then: even if Joseph had fathered baby Jesus, the child wouldn't have
necessarily been born with the so-called fallen nature because it's not passed on by
one's father nor one's mother. It's obtained from humanity's covert parent: the
Devil-- ergo: protecting baby Jesus from the so-called fallen nature was just a
simple matter of keeping the Devil's paws off him.

FAQ: No fair! Why are the rest of us allowed to be tampered by the Devil and not
him?

REPLY: Jesus is God's descendant, i.e. His next of kin: we aren't.
_

Offline davetaff

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2023, 03:54:58 PM »
Hi outwest
an interesting post I believe we should read the creation account starting with Noah Israel is man in the image of God they are also the tree of knowledge of good and evil because they had the law which tells them what good and evil is it tells us as well and the only way to comply with the law is through Love.

love and peace
 Dave

Offline John

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2023, 09:17:33 AM »
Dave,
       The bible starts at genesis chapter 1 verse 1 the account of creation.  It does not start with Noahs flood.

Your interpretation  of God calling Israel his child and therefore a man is a miss application of language, as is your calling the law the tree of knowledge of good and evil, an interesting use of picture language.

Offline davetaff

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2023, 10:40:02 AM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply but my interpritation of the creation account can be backed up by scripture the first creation was destroyed in the flood so God began a new creation with Noah and everything on the ark which follows the creation account in Genesis.
Israel is seen as a tree

     The Lord once called you ?a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.? But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.
Jeremiah 11:16 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jer.11.16.ESV         


Israel is Gods son as stated in scripture

    When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV     


If God calls Israel his son then Israel is Gods son and can not be refuted.

      declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ?My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,?
Isaiah 46:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.46.10.ESV     


So God tells us the end from the beginning the beginning is The creation account in Genesis the end of creation is man in the image of God and the only one in scripture that is said to be in the image of God is Jesus Christ

    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high     

And creation is on going

        But Jesus answered them, ?My Father is working until now, and I am working.?
John 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV     


So if the Father was working up to the time of Christ it means creation is ongoing and Gods sabbath rest is a future event that we can enter into I believe his rest is Christs millennial reign.

Love and peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/jer.11.16.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.46.10.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV

Offline OutWest

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2023, 02:53:37 PM »
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How Christ Became Solomon's Successor

Joseph played no role in Jesus' conception. (Matt 1:18-19 & Luke 1:31-35)

Even so; Mary's boy is positioned in Joseph's genealogy. (Matt 1:1-17)

It's sometimes assumed Jesus was Joseph's foster child. But foster kids have no
right to a place in a man's family tree. Seeing as how Jesus wasn't Joseph's
biological progeny, then the only way he could be legally placed in Joseph's
genealogy was by adoption; a journey that began on the night Joseph was
instructed by an angel to take part in naming Mary's virgin-born baby.

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus" (Matt 1:21)

Joseph complied.

"And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matt 1:25)

So Christ went in the books as Joseph's son because that's how it worked in those
days when a man stood with a woman to name her child. (cf. Luke 1:59, Luke
2:21) And from that day on; Joseph was regarded by all, including Mary, as Jesus'
father. (Matt 13:55, Luke 2:27, Luke 2:41, Luke 2:48)

FAQ: Why make an issue out of Jesus' association with Joseph?

REPLY: Because Jesus was ordained of God to inherit David's throne. (Luke 1:32-33)

Now the thing is: Mary was able to provide Jesus the biological connection to David,
but none to his son Solomon; which is very important because David's throne
comes down thru him. (1Kings 1:13 & 1Chron 22:9-10) This is where Joseph came
into the picture-- he's one of Solomon's biological descendants. (Matt 1:6 and Matt
1:16)

FAQ: Since when did the Jews begin placing men in positions of power by adoption?

REPLY: Jacob was the first.

At Gen 48:5-7, he adopted his own two biological grandsons Manasseh and
Ephraim; thus installing them as tribal heads equal in position to Jacob's eldest sons
Reuben and Simeon.
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Offline OutWest

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2023, 01:54:39 PM »
~
Jonah

Jonah 1:17 . . The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was
inside the fish three days and three nights.

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No; at some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called
sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he located at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, nor are they
located under the sea, rather: they're located underground deep in the Earth. So,
the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots of the mountains while
simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man and his body to part company
and go their separate ways. This is not impossible because according to Matt 10:28
people's souls don't always die along with their body.

Also, the language of Jonah's prayer strongly suggests that he was restored to life,
i.e. resurrected.

Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars
was around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my
God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" basically pertains to holes in the ground, but sometimes
speaks of putrefaction too, e.g. Ps 16:8-10 (cf. Acts 2:25-31)
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Offline OutWest

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Re: FAQ
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2023, 02:50:20 PM »
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Hell vs Logic

I watched an educational series on NetFlix some time ago called "The Inexplicable
Universe: Unsolved Mysteries" hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson PhD, director of the
Hayden Planetarium. Mr. Tyson said, in so many words; that in the study of
Physics, one must sometimes abandon sense and accept discoveries as they are no
matter how contrary to logic and/or expectations they may seem.

The NASA teams that sent Pioneers, Voyagers and Mariners out to explore the
planets came to the very same conclusion: they learned to abandon their logical
expectations and instead expect the unexpected; and they encountered plenty.

The discovery of the cosmos' accelerating expansion was very discouraging for
cosmologist Alan Sandage-- once a proponent of the theory that the universe would
eventually run out of explosive energy from the Big Bang and gradually pull itself
back together --and called the discovery of the ever increasing velocity of the
expanding universe a terrible surprise. And of course it is because the known laws
of gravity, combined with common sense, demand that the ballooning universe slow
down, stop expanding, and shrink. If nothing else, the velocity of its expansion
should at least be steady rather than picking up speed.

In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary exploration, faith
believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes sense to it.

I readily admit that the idea of people existing in an altered state, consciously
suffering to time indefinite, makes no sense at all to my human mind's way of
thinking, and seems to totally contradict the nature of a divine patron reputed to be
kind, caring, and sympathetic. But just as science admits to many unsolved
mysteries; so does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in
pretending to have complete understanding of a supernatural entity that by its very
nature defies reason and common sense.
_

 

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