Author Topic: Is this a contradiction?  (Read 213 times)

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Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2021, 07:32:09 PM »

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Not clear why "spit" is used in some translations. The usual meaning is to vomit out, or to reject with extreme disgust.

The allusion I suspect is to the syncretism of the ancient Israelites, who preserved old cultic idols and introduced new ones alongside Yahweh. Thus Jeroboam and Ahab introduced worship of Baal-Melkart, and Jereboam also introduced  the golden calves in Bethel and Dan. Mannaseh introduced astral worship. Contrast with Elijah whom insisted on Yahweh worship alone. Syncretism was always concomitant with the sin of idolatry, and included sacred prostitution, child sacrifice, burning of incense etc. Today Baal is denoted by State idolatry, or worship of the beasts. It's what we have in the UK: sacred prostitution in the abolition of biblical marriage by the State.

So worship of Yahweh became a pretence, because idols always displace him. Yahweh is a jealous God (first commandment).
But is it a contradiction though?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2021, 06:49:18 AM »
But is it a contradiction though?
No. As I tried to point out, the distinction lies in whether the believer ceases to be a believer or remains one. When it comes to idolatry the ever present risk is lapse into permanent unbelief, whilst deceiving oneself that one is still a believer.

2Ti 2:11  "Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;

2Ti 2:12 "if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;"

2Ti 2:13 "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

So there is a difference between being faithless on a temporary basis (as Peter himself) and disowning Christ.

In other words, it's the difference between mortal and venial sin, between disobedience through some temporary weakness or incapacity and apostacy, or between the sin that can be forgiven and the sin that cannot be forgiven.

The message is that Christ will seek to keep the recalcitrant within the faith as long as he can without betraying himself and having regard to God's holiness.

Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2021, 12:34:38 PM »
And is idolatry mortal or venial sin? Is that the only verse in the whole bible that draws any distinction between the two?
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Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2021, 12:45:26 PM »
And is idolatry mortal or venial sin? Is that the only verse in the whole bible that draws any distinction between the two?
I guess it's all a matter of degree, and of commitment, and of what accompanies it, e.g. sorcery and immorality. Does it involve temporary lapses, or does it involve building altars to ba'al, actual or metaphorical like the philosophers and their valuable scrolls in Act 19:19. Does it involve leading others into sin?

If I buy some expensible perishable goods in a momentary lapse, forgetting the commandment not to put my trust in what is perishable, but in a short while sell it again for almost what I paid for, or even sell it for more than what I paid, what is the full extent of my sin? Probably not much, if anything. If I buy a depreciating good like a brand new expensive car, and a year later sell it at a great loss, my sin will be so much greater.

But if I spend my life engrossed in idolatry, in sorcery, or in gnosticism or philosophy at the expense of faith, the consequences are far more serious.

1Jo 5:21 "Dear children, keep yourselves from idols."

So the Israelite idolatry and syncretism is exactly what we must refrain from. Without going through it all, not sure how to answer your question. All that can be said is that some categories of idolatry, especially involving sacrilege, the best examples being Simon Magus and his offer to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit, also Ananias and Sapphira, and any such as results in immorality, i.e. a woman who commits adultery and the man whom commit adultery with her, or theft of goods devoted to God, such as Achan's sin, which in the modern day might translate to stealing from believers, or lying to or about the Holy Spirit, Mat 12:31, involve one in automatic presumptions of apostasy requirng excommunication. See also 1 Cor 5, 1Co 5:13 2Th 3:6.

Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2021, 05:03:55 PM »
If I buy some expensible perishable goods in a momentary lapse, forgetting the commandment not to put my trust in what is perishable, but in a short while sell it again for almost what I paid for, or even sell it for more than what I paid, what is the full extent of my sin? Probably not much, if anything. If I buy a depreciating good like a brand new expensive car, and a year later sell it at a great loss, my sin will be so much greater.
Excuse the vernacular but what the hell are you on about? This must be some kind of joke or is there a back story I've just not been privy to?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2021, 07:08:59 PM »
Excuse the vernacular but what the hell are you on about? This must be some kind of joke or is there a back story I've just not been privy to?
OK, I should have qualified this by setting the context, which is when buying doesn't come from faith (Rom 14:23), i.e. when one is just being spendthrift, which is quite common today judging by the amount of personal debt
Quote
Non-mortgage debts including credit card debt and personal loans rose 11% to GBP119bn in the two years to March 2018, according to the ONS study, which is published every two years.
Average household financial debt rose 9% to GBP9,400.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50671834

Obviously I wasn't referring to spending in faith.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50671834

Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2021, 07:29:24 PM »
This has nothing to do with the subject. If you want to talk about that you should start a new thread. I hope someone has something sensible to say.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2021, 09:09:35 AM »
This has nothing to do with the subject. If you want to talk about that you should start a new thread. I hope someone has something sensible to say.
I think it has something to do with your questions, as you were asking about what the difference was between venial idolatry and mortal idolatry. Essentially it's the difference between being preoccupied with material wealth that arises from evil desires and greed and being blinded by pride of life and pride in what is seen (eg. Sodom per Eze 16:49, 1Ti 6:9,10, Heb 13:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 John 2:15-16, Luke 12:15, Isaiah 55:2, 2Co 5:12) and using material wealth for God's kingdom whilst keeping eyes fixed on God's kingdom (Colossians 3:2,Ecclesiastes 6:9, Hebrews 13:5, 2Co 4:18, Mat 19:21 &etc).

It's all about where your treasure is. And the evidence for many people can be seen in how they live their lives in terms of their spending habits, which doesn't involve making instant judgements on those who have expensive things, because frequently expensive things are more economical in the long run,  like my Miele washing machine still going strong after 15 years of use.

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