Author Topic: Is this a contradiction?  (Read 214 times)

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Offline strobe

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Is this a contradiction?
« on: May 19, 2021, 12:40:47 PM »

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John 6:37 whoever comes to me I will never cast out
Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2021, 03:46:49 PM »
John 6:37 whoever comes to me I will never cast out
Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
As Jesus himself said, the condition of "coming" is singular devotion to his cause, and the denying to oneself other masters (Mar 8:34 &etc). I guess he is referring to those who choose not to give up their idols.

Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2021, 06:20:39 PM »
I guess he is referring to those who choose not to give up their idols.
I assume by this you mean the Revelation verse. Do you think the Laodiceans hadn't given up their idols?
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Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2021, 09:23:09 PM »
I assume by this you mean the Revelation verse. Do you think the Laodiceans hadn't given up their idols?
I think this is what Rev infers in the following verses, and especially with respect to what constitited "riches" for the Loadiceans, which were perishable goods.

Rev 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Rev 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Rev 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."



Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2021, 11:12:22 AM »
I think this is what Rev infers in the following verses, and especially with respect to what constitited "riches" for the Loadiceans, which were perishable goods.

Rev 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Rev 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Rev 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
It was a rebuke directed at a church, how can it have anything to do with idolatry? Wouldn't that mean they weren't even Christians?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2021, 11:51:04 AM »
It was a rebuke directed at a church, how can it have anything to do with idolatry? Wouldn't that mean they weren't even Christians?
I think the church of Laodicea lapsed over a period of time. As with most of the churches in Asia (Minor) it would have originally consisted of Jewish converts in the days of Paul the Apostle and Epaphras (the possible founder of this church) his companion, and then become increasingly dominated by Gentiles as it expanded.

Laodicea was a very wealthy town. A later Greek church in Laodicea (4th century AD) was very large in extent and floored with marble.

At the likely time of the writing of Revelation, an addition fact may have led to backsliding. This was the demand of the Roman emperor Domitian (81 -96) to be worshipped as a living God during his own lifetime. It is possible that the Laodiceans complied with these edicts, from which they were not exempt as Christian Gentiles (only Jews were exempt) and thus worshipped the "image of the beast" incurring the wrath of Jesus Christ.

There were also earlier emperors who expected to be treated as if God, like Nero and Caligula, although  it seems only Caligula and Domitian actually proclaimed themselves God in their lifetimes in 1st century AD. There was an imperial cult centre at Pergamum (Rev 2:12-17), whose church did resist the cult and endured persecution. Perhaps the Laodiceans did not (just speculating).

Offline strobe

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2021, 04:20:58 PM »
I think the church of Laodicea lapsed over a period of time. As with most of the churches in Asia (Minor) it would have originally consisted of Jewish converts in the days of Paul the Apostle and Epaphras (the possible founder of this church) his companion, and then become increasingly dominated by Gentiles as it expanded.

Laodicea was a very wealthy town. A later Greek church in Laodicea (4th century AD) was very large in extent and floored with marble.

At the likely time of the writing of Revelation, an addition fact may have led to backsliding. This was the demand of the Roman emperor Domitian (81 -96) to be worshipped as a living God during his own lifetime. It is possible that the Laodiceans complied with these edicts, from which they were not exempt as Christian Gentiles (only Jews were exempt) and thus worshipped the "image of the beast" incurring the wrath of Jesus Christ.

There were also earlier emperors who expected to be treated as if God, like Nero and Caligula, although  it seems only Caligula and Domitian actually proclaimed themselves God in their lifetimes in 1st century AD. There was an imperial cult centre at Pergamum (Rev 2:12-17), whose church did resist the cult and endured persecution. Perhaps the Laodiceans did not (just speculating).
Surely the route to take is that maybe "casting out" is not the same as "spitting out". Otherwise, it seems like an awful muddle.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Is this a contradiction?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2021, 05:19:44 PM »
Surely the route to take is that maybe "casting out" is not the same as "spitting out". Otherwise, it seems like an awful muddle.
Not clear why "spit" is used in some translations. The usual meaning is to vomit out, or to reject with extreme disgust.

The allusion I suspect is to the syncretism of the ancient Israelites, who preserved old cultic idols and introduced new ones alongside Yahweh. Thus Jeroboam and Ahab introduced worship of Baal-Melkart, and Jereboam also introduced  the golden calves in Bethel and Dan. Mannaseh introduced astral worship. Contrast with Elijah whom insisted on Yahweh worship alone. Syncretism was always concomitant with the sin of idolatry, and included sacred prostitution, child sacrifice, burning of incense etc. Today Baal is denoted by State idolatry, or worship of the beasts. It's what we have in the UK: sacred prostitution in the abolition of biblical marriage by the State.

So worship of Yahweh became a pretence, because idols always displace him. Yahweh is a jealous God (first commandment).

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