Author Topic: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?  (Read 802 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2021, 07:38:37 AM »
The Hebrew for "man" in this passage is "ish"; the Hebrew for woman is "ish-shah" ("ish" with the feminine ending '-ah' stuck onto it). He's saying, in effect, that the woman is a female version of him. By coincidence, it's a wordplay that comes out in English as well, but in most languages it doesn't work.
So -'ah' implies the feminine in the general case of all nouns, or only some? It's not quite the same then, as in English, where "wo-" doesn't signify the feminine, except for woman itself.

Paul isn't talking about hats. He's talking about veils (like the Muslim hajib) covering the hair - because in eastern Mediterranean culture, a woman's hair was considered erotic.
I can't see that he is talking about veils specifically, but he is talking about something covering the head. Also the eroticism or not of a woman's hair doesn't arise in 1 Cor 11. The arguments are somewhat more elevated than that. In any event long hair would be seen outside the veil. The arguments especially relate to the need for a sign of a woman being subject to her husband's or father's authority; and in due deference to the angels 1Co 11:10.

Of course the pagan world doesn't recognize these things. The problem with Christians who also don't, and yet self identify as Christians, is why should we believe them?

1Co 11:16 "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom [as you Corinthians have lately adopted of allowing women to go uncovered], neither the churches of God."

Offline davetaff

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2021, 12:53:57 PM »
Hi
Getting back to the original question

   2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

   22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       


So both Christ and Israel are God's sons and as such would be the image of their Father.

So man in the image of God is not a single human being but as Christ will be at the rapture Christ the head and all those who are his which constitutes the woman his bride the head and body will be joined at the rapture then we will have man in the image of God.
Then God can say very good on the end of the sixth day of this creation which began after the flood.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2021, 01:27:11 PM »
Hi
Getting back to the original question

   2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

   22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       


So both Christ and Israel are God's sons and as such would be the image of their Father.

So man in the image of God is not a single human being but as Christ will be at the rapture Christ the head and all those who are his which constitutes the woman his bride the head and body will be joined at the rapture then we will have man in the image of God.
Then God can say very good on the end of the sixth day of this creation which began after the flood.
Again you seem to be reading things into the bible that just aren't there. Nowhere is Israel described as corporatively in the image of God, or the church, or Christ joined to the church. BTW, it is not that Christ will be joined to the church, but that he already is joined to the church. Don't you know that a betrothed is regarded as joined already to her spouse?

Galatians 2:20 ESV "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

Also, I think 1 Cor 11:7 is rather more relevant to the original question than your meta theories.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2021, 06:17:05 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I see you had a problem understanding this scripture.

     22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       

The law of nature says that if a father fathers a son then that son is the image of the one who fathered him this is true of all life forms and I believe this is true of God.
The scripture states quite clearly that God is the Father of Israel and as such Israel will be the image of his Father who is God.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 05:00:26 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I see you had a problem understanding this scripture.

     22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       
The law of nature says that if a father fathers a son then that son is the image of the one who fathered him this is true of all life forms and I believe this is true of God.
The scripture states quite clearly that God is the Father of Israel and as such Israel will be the image of his Father who is God.
The tense is present. Israel is God's son, but his adopted son. This is only one aspect in which your 'image' argument fails. For it is only a natural son that is in its Father's image.

And the purpose of sonship is to be conformed to God's spiritual image, but as I have discussed previously, the image of God concept back in Gen 1:27 included various aspects including temporal and moral rulership of earth, and the creation of a divine order of life forms on earth.

Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Here we seen another repudiation of your corporative image concept. It is the individual that is to be conformed to the image of God, which in the NT has largely been superseded and augmented in spiritual terms by the image of Christ. So just because Israel is God's (adopted) son corporatively, does not speak of Israel as corporatively a nation as in the image of God. Clearly Israel never achoieved this exalted position, as is explained in the epistle to the Hebrews. Rather it is the individuals within Israel, even the remnant, whom alone were, and are, and are to be, conformed to God's image. This transformation takes place in this life, not in another life.

"For many are called but few are chosen" Matt 22:14 infers that individuals alone will become conformed to God's image.



Offline davetaff

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 10:55:05 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply

   
     22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       


Israel is Gods first born son as stated above and as such is the image of his the Father why you don't believe what the scriptures say is beyond me.
I can go with created this is what God did starting with Abraham ending with Israel coming out of Egypt as a nation being born through the red sea.
So Israel is mankind in the image of God this is man in the image of God in the flesh this man must come first but this man cannot enter the kingdom of God he must be transformed into a spiritual man through Jesus Christ both them and us will be transformed into his glorious body then we will have the end of creation mankind in the image of God.

       Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure     

The end here is the end of creation which is man in the image of God which is Christ at his second coming.
So the creation account in Genesis stretches from the beginning of creation to the end of Christs millennial reign which is still a future event and not to far of I hope.

When we read Isa 46:10 God tells us in the beginning  he tells us of things not done so the creation account is a prophecy of coming attractions so the creation account covers the whole history of mankind the crowning glory being man in the image of God which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 11:44:20 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply

   
     22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       


Israel is Gods first born son as stated above and as such is the image of his the Father why you don't believe what the scriptures say is beyond me.
Your deductions "Israel is the image of his the Father" is not scriptural.

Not only is there no scripture for such an assertion, exceping possible allusions to the church of Christ, but the idea of Israel as in the image of God is controverted by scripture. The reason why God chose Israel was not because Israel was ever in the image of God, but because of his promises made to the patriarchs.

Moreover if Israel was in the image of God, there would have been no need for the new covenant.

Deu 7:7 "It is not because you were more numerous than all the other peoples that the LORD favored and chose you - for in fact you were the least numerous of all peoples."

Deu 7:8 "Rather it is because of his love for you and his faithfulness to the promise he solemnly vowed to your ancestors that the LORD brought you out with great power, redeeming you from the place of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."


Deu 10:15 "Yet the LORD set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations?as it is today."

Deu 10:16 "Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer."


Here we plainly see Israel as not being deemed to be conformant to God's spiritual principles. Again:

Heb 3:10 "That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ?Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.?"

Heb 3:11 "So I declared on oath in my anger, ?They shall never enter my rest.? ?


So we see, that the spiritual image of God is distinct from adopted sonship.

I can go with created this is what God did starting with Abraham ending with Israel coming out of Egypt as a nation being born through the red sea.
So Israel is mankind in the image of God this is man in the image of God in the flesh this man must come first but this man cannot enter the kingdom of God he must be transformed into a spiritual man through Jesus Christ both them and us will be transformed into his glorious body then we will have the end of creation mankind in the image of God.
Rubbish. Mankind collectively will never be in the (spiritual) image of God. It is only the remnant that will be saved.

Rom 9:27,28  "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: ?Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.?

       Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure     

The end here is the end of creation which is man in the image of God which is Christ at his second coming.
So the creation account in Genesis stretches from the beginning of creation to the end of Christs millennial reign which is still a future event and not to far of I hope.

When we read Isa 46:10 God tells us in the beginning  he tells us of things not done so the creation account is a prophecy of coming attractions so the creation account covers the whole history of mankind the crowning glory being man in the image of God which is Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rubbish, apart from Jesus himself being in the (spiritual) image of God. Yet he is no part of the original creation, except that he was ordained at the original creation. In that sense the original creation was still complete back in Gen 1, because what was ordained by it would certainly come to pass.

The passage above speaks about God's declaration of what was yet to come, in spiritual terms. God acting in respect of men spiritually is not deemed part of the original physical creation of the earth, even if ordained before the foundation of the world. Men in the image of God may be the end of their own individual creations; but being born and being saved is not classified as an act of physical creation as per Gen 1, excepting in so far what was then appointed to happen in the future. If you want to include God's foreknowledge and predestination as part of the orginal creation, then you can, but it has no consequences as to individual or collective salvation.

The idea of "mankind collectively in the image of God" is just unbridled communism and meaningless. The NT is all about individual salvation. The idea of the physical creation, which God himself said was finished back in Gen 2:2, being extended forward and used to modify the concept of salvation to embrace universality is perverse.

The idea of extending the image of God concept from Gen 1:27 to a embrace a collective salvation of all men in Christ is rank heresy.

You're endlessly confounding different parts of the bible to no purpose except the furtherance of gnosticism in the form of some communist corporatist goal which likely embraces universal salvation.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Does the bible really say that we are in God's image?
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 01:16:20 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said.

Quote
  Hi eik
Thank you for your reply

   
     22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn       

Israel is Gods first born son as stated above and as such is the image of his the Father why you don't believe what the scriptures say is beyond me.
Your deductions "Israel is the image of his the Father" is not scriptural       

So you are saying I can rip the above verse from my bible because it's wrong.

I have come to the conclusion that you purposely misread what I say I have never said all humanity will be saved what I have said is all those who come through the millennium will be saved the whole body of Christ.

Thank you for the verses you have quoted they support everything I have said.

Quote
   Rubbish. Mankind collectively will never be in the (spiritual) image of God. It is only the remnant that will be saved.

Rom 9:27,28  "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: ?Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality       

Mankind will be in the image of God in Christ mankind here is all those who are saved in Christ not the whole population of the world.
The remnant here is the remnant of Israel 144.000 I believe.

Quote
      Rubbish, apart from Jesus himself being in the (spiritual) image of God. Yet he is no part of the original creation, except that he was ordained at the original creation. In that sense the original creation was still complete back in Gen 1, because what was ordained by it would certainly come to pass   

Calling something rubbish is not very helpful unless you can give a better explanation which you have not done.
If as you say creation was completed in Genesis 1 how on earth could call God it very good when God knew everything that was going to happen in the future.

Just to make it as plain as possible I not and never have advocated that all mankind will be saved and would be grateful if you would stop putting words in my mouth that I have never said.

Those who will be saved are all those who are the body of Christ at the end of the millenium this is man in the image of God the end of creation.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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