Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4315 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2021, 08:17:54 PM »

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply that sin has been in the world from the beginning until now is not in question all Paul is saying with

    Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View more

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law       


Were there is no law there is no transgression of the law or in other words you cannot brake the law unless you you know what the law says.

    17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled         


Seams to me the law is alive and kicking
The use of the word "law" in English is I believe fairly similar to the Greek word for law, "nomos" meaning "anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command."

The context must therefore define what the word "law" means in any sentence. The context is Paul writing about the law of Moses, and how sin predated it. However it is clear that the law of Moses was not the sole means by which the law of God was communicated to men cf. Roms 1 & 2 again. Paul concedes it by referring to sin being in the world.

As I understand you, you intend to diminish sin prior to Moses on the basis that no one could know the difference between right and wrong prior to the Israelite code? I may be misunderstanding you.

It is not true that man didn't know the moral law prior to Moses, due to man being in the image of God and Adam knowing both good and evil. If it means anything, it means that mankind knew the difference between right and wrong. Hence the reason Sodom was destroyed, why Cain was judged etc.

The word "sin" appears 8 times in the KJV prior to the law of Moses, from Cain, to the Egyptian Pharoah. It is clear that all these people knew what "sin" meant and also had a knowledge of the moral law.

"In other words you cannot brake the law unless you you know what the law says" is true only of the written code, but not the natural / moral law, which people are expected to know.

There is in the English code no statutory law against murder. Yet it's no defence to "murder" to say "there is no law." For the common law, which is unencoded except in the caselaw, exists alongside statutory law in our current legal system.

The same idea is roughly being promulgated by Paul. What he is saying is that the specific curses under the law were not in force prior to the law's enactment. Yet death still reigned by virtue of the natural law.

The statutory code is an instructor for the simple and foolish. Much of what the law says is written on the human heart, in any event. In the English legal system, Statute refines the common law, which is based on morality.

You failed to explain how sin could have existed without some kind of law, prior to Moses.

         Hos 12:13 And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved   

          Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son     


Both Christ and Israel were called out of Egypt and both are God's sons Israel in the flesh Christ in the Spirit and as such they are the image of the Father.
So were individuals regarded as sons of God. Psa 82:6. This proves nothing. So was Adam Luke 3:38.

       3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high       

Man in the image of God is man and woman united
Not in the bible, but marriage is in the bible.

  24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh         

I believe every word of scripture I may not understand them all as for fire

        Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire     

So maybe Gods fire has a good purpose
If you can call wrath "good." Angels are the servants of God to bring wrath on the earth. I wouldn't want to meet an angel called to dispense God's wrath, which is what will envelope the world on the "day of our Lord."

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Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2021, 12:43:47 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for man made laws and moral laws I find no reference for them in scripture that man has made there own laws is not in question of course they have but they are not the laws given to Moses by God.
Even Hitler and many more dictators have made there own laws and enforced them with military force.
But we are discussing Gods laws and if we take the as a whole they mean we will not do any harm to our fellow man.
And the best way to comply with Gods law is to love our fellow man.

     Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law     

And if we love we fulfil all the laws of man we have no end of man made laws and punishment but it dose not stop people breaking the law only love can do that I think God proved that with Israel they had the written law but could not keep it the only way to comply with the law man's or Gods is through Love.

Quote
       So were individuals regarded as sons of God. Psa 82:6. This proves nothing. So was Adam Luke 3:38       

In Psa 82 God is speaking in the congregation of the Gods not sure if he referring to men.
Luke 3 is only saying Adam was the son of God

Quote
      Man in the image of God is man and woman united

Not in the bible, but marriage is in the bible.       

    Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. View more

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? View more

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. View more

Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. View more

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. View more

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh         


Are you saying all these verses are wrong are you saying Christ will not be married to his bride the church and they will not become one

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2021, 06:33:09 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for man made laws and moral laws I find no reference for them in scripture that man has made there own laws is not in question of course they have but they are not the laws given to Moses by God.
Even Hitler and many more dictators have made there own laws and enforced them with military force.
But we are discussing Gods laws and if we take the as a whole they mean we will not do any harm to our fellow man.
And the best way to comply with Gods law is to love our fellow man.
OK, so you say that no morality existed before Moses. That I think is the most perverse comment on the Old Testament I have ever heard, given that Sodom was destroyed for contravening the moral law.

I cannot help think that your theologian teachers have got to you, because they too reject the Old Testament pre-Israel, saying it was effectively fabricated to give Israel a history.

Another quality you fail to grasp of law is that it is revealed, rather than made. The laws for the Israelites were a revelation, rather than an invention. Like the laws of science are now written down in textbooks, in a formal manner, after having been discovered, but it didn't mean to say that people didn't know how the laws of science exerted their forces and effects before. People knew how to make gunpowder long before the chemical formula was known. Similar thing with law. The principles of morality were well known before the code of Moses. Although some laws might have been novel, there is not really any doubt that much of the moral law was already known, even if it wasn't being obeyed.

     Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law     

And if we love we fulfil all the laws of man we have no end of man made laws and punishment but it dose not stop people breaking the law only love can do that I think God proved that with Israel they had the written law but could not keep it the only way to comply with the law man's or Gods is through Love.
So you reject Rom 13:1 which says that rulers (and by inference their laws) are appointed by God?

In Psa 82 God is speaking in the congregation of the Gods not sure if he referring to men.
They died so they were men.

Luke 3 is only saying Adam was the son of God
It shows that you defining Israel as alone the son of God is not scriptural.

    Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. View more

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? View more

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. View more

Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. View more

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. View more

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh         


Are you saying all these verses are wrong are you saying Christ will not be married to his bride the church and they will not become one
The concept of man as the image of God long predated Christ, and is about men being given temporal and moral dominion on earth. Being in the image of God is associated with moral law. I fail to see your train of logic. Of course the church is called to be the spiritual facsimile of Christ, as Christ is the spiritual facsimile of God the Father (1 Cor 11:3). However Adam and Christ occupy rather different theological positions.

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2021, 12:57:42 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I still don't  see what morality has to do with Gods word its not even mentioned in my bible it may have been around from the beginning but it has nothing at all to do with this discussion I thought we were discussing Gods word as we have it in the bible and the word moral is not found there.

Quote
      I cannot help think that your theologian teachers have got to you, because they too reject the Old Testament pre-Israel, saying it was effectively fabricated to give Israel a history           

How many times must I say I have no teachers only the bible I have never ever rejected the OT so please don't say I did in fact I believe the OT is very important and a mine of information.

Quote
    It shows that you defining Israel as alone the son of God is not scriptural         

Don't you read anything I say the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood God began a new creation of man in his lmage which was Israel the man of flesh who sinned against the law and as a result God began a new creation of man in his image with Jesus who would become the man of spirit.

      For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:53 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.53.ESV       


So Israel is the man of flesh and the son of God Christ is the man of spirit and is the son of God.

Quote
      The concept of man as the image of God long predated Christ, and is about men being given temporal and moral dominion on earth. Being in the image of God is associated with moral law. I fail to see your train of logic. Of course the church is called to be the spiritual facsimile of Christ, as Christ is the spiritual facsimile of God the Father (1 Cor 11:3). However Adam and Christ occupy rather different theological positions       

Of course the concept of man in the image of God have been with us from the beginning in Genesis and I believe the word man should be interpreted as mankind.
It is mankind who will be given dominion over the earth under the kingship of Jesus Christ.
When Christ is united with his bride the church and they become one then we will have man in the image of God.
Christ is the last Adam and Israel is the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.53.ESV

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #100 on: April 01, 2021, 07:16:59 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I still don't  see what morality has to do with Gods word its not even mentioned in my bible it may have been around from the beginning but it has nothing at all to do with this discussion I thought we were discussing Gods word as we have it in the bible and the word moral is not found there.

How many times must I say I have no teachers only the bible I have never ever rejected the OT so please don't say I did in fact I believe the OT is very important and a mine of information.
The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality?

You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc.

Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me.

Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity.

 How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.

Don't you read anything I say the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood God began a new creation of man in his lmage which was Israel the man of flesh who sinned against the law and as a result God began a new creation of man in his image with Jesus who would become the man of spirit.
I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity.

Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this.

      For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:53 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.53.ESV       


So Israel is the man of flesh and the son of God Christ is the man of spirit and is the son of God.
The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2.

Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4.



Of course the concept of man in the image of God have been with us from the beginning in Genesis and I believe the word man should be interpreted as mankind.
I agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness.

It is mankind who will be given dominion over the earth under the kingship of Jesus Christ.
Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time.

When Christ is united with his bride the church and they become one then we will have man in the image of God.
No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies.

Christ is the last Adam and Israel is the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah.
Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical.
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.53.ESV

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2021, 12:25:29 PM »
The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality?

    how many times must I say sin has been in the world since Adam ate from the tree of knowledge.
Noah was righteous because God said he was but no one else on the ark was said to be righteous so sin was transferred into the next creation of man in the image of God     


You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc.

justification by faith I have never denied
I think your the one playing with words           


Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me.

    the only influences I get is from scripture its  self    as for the millennium I prefer to believe the bible which says.

         Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years                take note of the last line and as other scriptures attest to his reign will be here on earth   


Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity.

   you can believe  what you like   I will believe Gods word over mans    if there's no millennium why is satan bound for a thousand years
               Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years                  


 How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.
I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity.

Noah was righteous because God said he was  as for Adam

        Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died                  thats good enough for me           


Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this.
The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2.

Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4.

I think you will find that the Spirit spoke through the prophets they did not have it as a permanent feature it was only given after the resurrection of Christ


I agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness.
Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time.
No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies.
Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical.

    when God said

    Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good               every thing that creepeth included human beings then God said let us make man in our image the first and last Adam would be created in the same way and we know what the last Adam looks like other wise he would have given dominion of the world to one man and one woman makes no sense.
 Yes man has dominion on earth under the leadership of Satan and what a compleat mess we have made of it thatswhy we need the return of Christ and his millennial reign to put things right and to lock Satan up for a thousand years           

        35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

 36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection   
     

The word says equal to angels not that they are angels   

I don't know why you keep making assumptions about me I believe Adam was created in the image of God and where you get the idea that I believe the OT is mythical is beyond me I believe ever word of scripture is the word of God      please do not make assumptions about me that are not true I don't need you to judge me I'll let Christ do that.
As for my teachers I don't  have any except those  we have in the bible the greatest of them is Christ Jesus our Lord

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2021, 08:14:57 PM »
Quote
Quote from: eik on Yesterday at 07:16:59 PM

    The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality?

        how many times must I say sin has been in the world since Adam ate from the tree of knowledge.
    Noah was righteous because God said he was but no one else on the ark was said to be righteous so sin was transferred into the next creation of man in the image of God     
Noah was righteous because he was a moral person. A righteous man produces sanctified offspring.1 Corinthians 7:14. God saved them all. Who are you to accuse of sin?

Sin is not "transferred," although culpability for sin may be. Yet in the case of Noah and his sons, God did not transfer culpability.

Otherwise no idea what you're talking about. This is gnostic stuff.

Quote
    You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc.

    justification by faith I have never denied
    I think your the one playing with words           
You're deny Noah was justified, because you say he wasn't in the image of God. You said "I have stated many times the only thing not on the ark was Man in the image of God and this was the only thing God needed to Create."

Here is what the NT says about Noah:

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Yet per your quote, "noone on the ark was in the image of God." Why should anyone listen to you?

Quote
    Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me.
        the only influences I get is from scripture its  self    as for the millennium I prefer to believe the bible which says.

             Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years                take note of the last line and as other scriptures attest to his reign will be here on earth   
I don't believe you. All this business about man in the image of God not surviving the flood is gnosticism of a high order. I have never in my entire decades old Christian experience heard it before.

I still don't know where you're getting it from, except from those who despise the  OT and whom want to re-write it to idolize Israel. This is often some variant of dispensationalism, except that it is hyper-dispensationalism taken to extremes.

Quote
    Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity.
       you can believe  what you like   I will believe Gods word over mans    if there's no millennium why is satan bound for a thousand years
                   Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years                 
May be you should read more widely, instead of only dispensationist propaganda.

Quote
     How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.[q

   I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity.
    Noah was righteous because God said he was  as for Adam

            Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died                  thats good enough for me           
The descendants of Adam are also Adam (of the earth). What makes you think they weren't?

Quote
    Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this.
    The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2.

    Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4.

    I think you will find that the Spirit spoke through the prophets they did not have it as a permanent feature it was only given after the resurrection of Christ
2 Kings 2:9 "After they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, ?Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken away from you?? ?Please, let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,? Elisha replied. 10. You have requested a difficult thing,? said Elijah. ?Nevertheless, if you see me as I am taken from you, it will be yours. But if not, then it will not be so.?? "

So if spirit could be inherited, it is refering to the spirit of God.

Psa 143:10 "Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness."

If the Holy Spirit had not been given, how could the Psalmist describe God's spirit as good?

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   I agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness.
    Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time.
    No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies.
    Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical.

    when God said

    Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good               every thing that creepeth included human beings then God said let us make man in our image the first and last Adam would be created in the same way and we know what the last Adam looks like other wise he would have given dominion of the world to one man and one woman makes no sense.
 Yes man has dominion on earth under the leadership of Satan and what a compleat mess we have made of it thatswhy we need the return of Christ and his millennial reign to put things right and to lock Satan up for a thousand years           

        35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

 36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection         

The word says equal to angels not that they are angels   

I don't know why you keep making assumptions about me I believe Adam was created in the image of God and where you get the idea that I believe the OT is mythical is beyond me I believe ever word of scripture is the word of God      please do not make assumptions about me that are not true I don't need you to judge me I'll let Christ do that.
As for my teachers I don't  have any except those  we have in the bible the greatest of them is Christ Jesus our Lord
Locking satan up will not remove Gog and Magog from the face of the earth, so I regret your idea of heaven of earth is misconceived. Were heaven to exist on earth, God and Magog would first have to be destroyed.

Also who exactly is going to be present at your "millennium." What is the qualification?

I regret I conceive of dispensationalism as the deepest heresy, millennium and all.

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2021, 12:29:50 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply it seams that everything boils down to what man in the image of God you say its an ordenary man I say no its not because we have two very good examples in the bible Israel and Christ.
If we take Christ as our prime example I believe it will be completed at his second coming when he is united with his bride his body and they become one what we can deduce from this is man in the image of God is a whole multitude of people under the leadership of Christ.

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      Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith         

Just says Noah was a man of faith  says absolutly nothing about him being in the image of God the bible is full of men of faith dose not mean as individuals they are in the image of God but they will be part of that man when Christ returns.

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       I don't believe you. All this business about man in the image of God not surviving the flood is gnosticism of a high order. I have never in my entire decades old Christian experience heard it before     

You don't have to believe me but as a professing Christian you have to believe the scriptures and when the bible says Christ will reign for a thousand years then that's what will happen.

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     I still don't know where you're getting it from, except from those who despise the  OT and whom want to re-write it to idolize Israel. This is often some variant of dispensationalism, except that it is hyper-dispensationalism taken to extremes     

The only place I get what I say is from the bible

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       May be you should read more widely, instead of only dispensationist propaganda       

I don't know what dispensationist propaganda means let alone read.

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         The descendants of Adam are also Adam (of the earth). What makes you think they weren't               

The first Adam would have been created in the same way as the last Adam a whole multitude of people which all perished in the flood except for Noah and his family.



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       If the Holy Spirit had not been given, how could the Psalmist describe God's spirit as good     


    2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost           

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        Locking satan up will not remove Gog and Magog from the face of the earth, so I regret your idea of heaven of earth is misconceived. Were heaven to exist on earth, God and Magog would first have to be destroyed       

I think you read the whole section.

     7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever     


Note verse 7 satan released after a 1000 years thats the millenium
Gog and Magog join satan and they are devoured by the fire from God so Gog and Magog are no more and satan is cast into the lake of fire.

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     Also who exactly is going to be present at your "millennium." What is the qualification           

    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen         
                     
       Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV                       


Those who are chosen as was the Apostles and those who are called and have accepted Christ as there Lord and Saviour.

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      I regret I conceive of dispensationalism as the deepest heresy, millennium and all       

Don't  know what dispensationist means and to say the millenium is a heresy is to deny the word of God which plainly says that Christ will reign for a thousand years.

Love and Peace
Dave

https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV

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