Christian Forums and Chat
!!
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Hi eik Thank you for your reply that sin has been in the world from the beginning until now is not in question all Paul is saying with Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View moreRom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law Were there is no law there is no transgression of the law or in other words you cannot brake the law unless you you know what the law says. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled Seams to me the law is alive and kicking
Hos 12:13 And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son Both Christ and Israel were called out of Egypt and both are God's sons Israel in the flesh Christ in the Spirit and as such they are the image of the Father.
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high Man in the image of God is man and woman united
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh I believe every word of scripture I may not understand them all as for fire Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire So maybe Gods fire has a good purpose
So were individuals regarded as sons of God. Psa 82:6. This proves nothing. So was Adam Luke 3:38
Man in the image of God is man and woman unitedNot in the bible, but marriage is in the bible.
Hi eik Thank you for your reply as for man made laws and moral laws I find no reference for them in scripture that man has made there own laws is not in question of course they have but they are not the laws given to Moses by God.Even Hitler and many more dictators have made there own laws and enforced them with military force.But we are discussing Gods laws and if we take the as a whole they mean we will not do any harm to our fellow man.And the best way to comply with Gods law is to love our fellow man.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law And if we love we fulfil all the laws of man we have no end of man made laws and punishment but it dose not stop people breaking the law only love can do that I think God proved that with Israel they had the written law but could not keep it the only way to comply with the law man's or Gods is through Love.
In Psa 82 God is speaking in the congregation of the Gods not sure if he referring to men.
Luke 3 is only saying Adam was the son of God
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. View moreMat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? View moreMat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. View moreMar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. View more1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. View moreEph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh Are you saying all these verses are wrong are you saying Christ will not be married to his bride the church and they will not become one
I cannot help think that your theologian teachers have got to you, because they too reject the Old Testament pre-Israel, saying it was effectively fabricated to give Israel a history
It shows that you defining Israel as alone the son of God is not scriptural
The concept of man as the image of God long predated Christ, and is about men being given temporal and moral dominion on earth. Being in the image of God is associated with moral law. I fail to see your train of logic. Of course the church is called to be the spiritual facsimile of Christ, as Christ is the spiritual facsimile of God the Father (1 Cor 11:3). However Adam and Christ occupy rather different theological positions
Hi eikThank you for your reply I still don't see what morality has to do with Gods word its not even mentioned in my bible it may have been around from the beginning but it has nothing at all to do with this discussion I thought we were discussing Gods word as we have it in the bible and the word moral is not found there.How many times must I say I have no teachers only the bible I have never ever rejected the OT so please don't say I did in fact I believe the OT is very important and a mine of information.
Don't you read anything I say the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood God began a new creation of man in his lmage which was Israel the man of flesh who sinned against the law and as a result God began a new creation of man in his image with Jesus who would become the man of spirit.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.1 Corinthians 15:53 ESVhttps://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.53.ESV So Israel is the man of flesh and the son of God Christ is the man of spirit and is the son of God.
Of course the concept of man in the image of God have been with us from the beginning in Genesis and I believe the word man should be interpreted as mankind.
It is mankind who will be given dominion over the earth under the kingship of Jesus Christ.
When Christ is united with his bride the church and they become one then we will have man in the image of God.
Christ is the last Adam and Israel is the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah.
The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality? how many times must I say sin has been in the world since Adam ate from the tree of knowledge.Noah was righteous because God said he was but no one else on the ark was said to be righteous so sin was transferred into the next creation of man in the image of God You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc. justification by faith I have never denied I think your the one playing with words Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me. the only influences I get is from scripture its self as for the millennium I prefer to believe the bible which says. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years take note of the last line and as other scriptures attest to his reign will be here on earth Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity. you can believe what you like I will believe Gods word over mans if there's no millennium why is satan bound for a thousand years Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity. Noah was righteous because God said he was as for Adam Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died thats good enough for me Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this.The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2.Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4. I think you will find that the Spirit spoke through the prophets they did not have it as a permanent feature it was only given after the resurrection of ChristI agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness.Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time.No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies.Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical.
QuoteQuote from: eik on Yesterday at 07:16:59 PM The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality? how many times must I say sin has been in the world since Adam ate from the tree of knowledge. Noah was righteous because God said he was but no one else on the ark was said to be righteous so sin was transferred into the next creation of man in the image of God
Quote from: eik on Yesterday at 07:16:59 PM The word sin existed before Israel. On what basis was Sodom judged? If sin is in the bible, the avoidance of sin, morality i.e. "righteousness" is also in the bible. How was Noah "righteous in his generation" if there was no morality?
Quote You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc. justification by faith I have never denied I think your the one playing with words
You're just playing with words, whilst disregarding the concepts. The conception of justification by faith has been with us since Abel. It runs throughout the OT, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David etc.
Quote Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me. the only influences I get is from scripture its self as for the millennium I prefer to believe the bible which says. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years take note of the last line and as other scriptures attest to his reign will be here on earth
Your protestations of belief are outweighed by the fact that you seem to want to create your own version of the Old Testament, based on some external agenda given by your influencers which you have yet to reveal the identities of. No-one starting from ignorance of the bible, and with almost no prior knowledge, as I did, except a basic understanding of the biblical characters, could have reached the conclusion which you seek to draw on Adam, Israel, and a "heaven on earth" described by you as the millennium, which you say awaits ... whom exactly? All of this is gobbledygook to me.
Quote Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity. you can believe what you like I will believe Gods word over mans if there's no millennium why is satan bound for a thousand years Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Nowhere in the NT is God calling anyone to look forward to the "millennium." If that's your idea of Christianity, then I don't think its Christianity.
Quote How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.[q I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity. Noah was righteous because God said he was as for Adam Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died thats good enough for me
How could Noah have been righteous if the generation of Adam had died? Righteusness came by the descendants of Adam for Adam was made in the image of God, as were his descendants. You make no sense. Your teaching is weird beyond measure, and dangerous, because you set yourself up against so many conventional teachers. What is unconventional is dangerous for faith.[q I've heard this from you so many times. Yet what you say isn't in the bible. Nowhere do I read that "the first Adam before the flood died and was no more after the flood." This is gnosticism and puts you at odds with orthodox Christianity.
Quote Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this. The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2. Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4. I think you will find that the Spirit spoke through the prophets they did not have it as a permanent feature it was only given after the resurrection of Christ
Show me any other orthodox Christian who believes this. The passage above is referring to the resurrection of the body, not the advent of the new covenant and the sanctification by the spirit. 1 Peter 1:2. Both the OT sons of God, and Christ himself, were of the flesh, and some of the Israelites at least were also of the Spirit, e.g. the prophets. There is no real distinction between the OT and the NT except for the manner of justification and the more complete spiritual benefits under the new covenant. It is still fundamentally the same way to heaven and the same kingdom of God: Romans 1:17,Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4.
Quote I agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness. Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time. No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies. Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical. when God said Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good every thing that creepeth included human beings then God said let us make man in our image the first and last Adam would be created in the same way and we know what the last Adam looks like other wise he would have given dominion of the world to one man and one woman makes no sense. Yes man has dominion on earth under the leadership of Satan and what a compleat mess we have made of it thatswhy we need the return of Christ and his millennial reign to put things right and to lock Satan up for a thousand years 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection The word says equal to angels not that they are angels I don't know why you keep making assumptions about me I believe Adam was created in the image of God and where you get the idea that I believe the OT is mythical is beyond me I believe ever word of scripture is the word of God please do not make assumptions about me that are not true I don't need you to judge me I'll let Christ do that.As for my teachers I don't have any except those we have in the bible the greatest of them is Christ Jesus our Lord
I agree mankind, as from Noah, but just think: at some point in history, someone had to be the first "homo sapiens in the image of God." At some point there were no homo sapiens in the image of God. I believe Adam, the first man in the image of God, was the progenitor of all human flesh becoming in the image of God. The second was Eve, his wife. Thereon after, man ceased gradually to be regarded by God as a animal, and became a moral being, alive to God. By the time of Noah, all men could be regarded as in the image of God. Hence the flood, where mankind was punished for wickedness. Mankind already does have dominion over the earth and has had for a long time. No. Then we will have men as angels (Luke 20:36) whom can no longer die, with spiritual bodies. Christ is the last Adam, but otherwise rubbish. I know of no other person whom agrees with you, and I think it stems from your disbelief in Adam as a real person, and from your teachers who regard the pre-Israelite OT as largely mythical.
Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith
I don't believe you. All this business about man in the image of God not surviving the flood is gnosticism of a high order. I have never in my entire decades old Christian experience heard it before
I still don't know where you're getting it from, except from those who despise the OT and whom want to re-write it to idolize Israel. This is often some variant of dispensationalism, except that it is hyper-dispensationalism taken to extremes
May be you should read more widely, instead of only dispensationist propaganda
The descendants of Adam are also Adam (of the earth). What makes you think they weren't
If the Holy Spirit had not been given, how could the Psalmist describe God's spirit as good
Locking satan up will not remove Gog and Magog from the face of the earth, so I regret your idea of heaven of earth is misconceived. Were heaven to exist on earth, God and Magog would first have to be destroyed
Also who exactly is going to be present at your "millennium." What is the qualification
I regret I conceive of dispensationalism as the deepest heresy, millennium and all